The Youngstown Rip Off Scam

[Towntalk]

http://www.wfmj.com/story/30067447/drivers-on-interstate-680-may-be-getting-the-message-to-slow-down

[Towntalk]

http://wkbn.com/2015/09/18/ypd-cameras-pick-up-2300-speeders-in-a-month-on-i-680/

[Towntalk]

One of the most dangerous spots is near me, and when my friend takes me shopping, we have to make that curve twice, and if it were not for my trust in him, I'd rather switch stores and bank. It's been reported that even the tow truck drivers who have to clean up after a wreck are afraid of that area, so if that is the case with them, then that's saying something we should all take seriously.

[Why?Town]

Yeah yeah everyone wants to whine and complain about their civil rights being violated.
Until someone is in an automobile accident and either dies or is disabled for life.
Then they're all about "well where were the cops, why didn't they stop this! I swear our police force is good for nothing!".

Rick know as well as we do that the law is the law.  If he, or anyone, wants it changed, do it the right way and get the law changed.
But, I'm sure that Rick knows this already, as he seems like a very intelligent person.

Exactly what will still be said after any future accidents as long as this money-grab is going on. The police aren't stopping anything by sending a bill in the mail. if it's unsafe to be travelling 680 at 56 mph (giving a 5mph buffer here) people driving that fast should be stopped. I would think a good lawyer may be able to prove the city/ police/ etc. liable for damages if they just let people continue at illegal/ dangerous speeds.

[Peggy Gurney]

Yeah yeah everyone wants to whine and complain about their civil rights being violated.
Until someone is in an automobile accident and either dies or is disabled for life.
Then they're all about "well where were the cops, why didn't they stop this! I swear our police force is good for nothing!".

Rick know as well as we do that the law is the law.  If he, or anyone, wants it changed, do it the right way and get the law changed.
But, I'm sure that Rick knows this already, as he seems like a very intelligent person.

[Towntalk]

But Peggy, don't you realize that this violates Rick's civil rights? Isn't there some provision in the U.S. Constitution that applies to matters such as this? If Rick wants to go 90 mph on 680 that should be his constitutional right and not have to worry about some flatfoot hiding behind a billboard with his speedgun just waiting to catch him.

[Peggy Gurney]

50 mph on a divided highway is just too slow.  It does not feel natural to drive at that speed.  50 mph feels natural on a two lane road such as Route 616. 

Regardless of what the Peggys of the world say, people will not heed speed limits that do not match what they feel should be the natural speed for the road, just because some bureaucrat says so.   

Allan, many of the crashes that you list that attribute excessive speed as a contributing factor are not talking about some guy going 60 mph.  The "excessive speed" is 70, 80 or 90.  Driving 60 mph on 680 when everyone else is going 60 is imminently safer than one guy going 50 and the rest going 60.  But going 80 when everyone else is at 60 is not.

Cops hiding behind bridge abutments with cameras are not promoting safety in the least.  A cop in his car in the median is.   Stationing officers on 680 at varying locations and in plain sight will actually result in people driving slower.  Hiding and fining drivers will not have that effect.  It just makes money for the city.

In a city such as Youngstown where not many have a lot of extra money, I wonder what the payment percentage is going to be for these fines.  When you live paycheck to paycheck and maybe only have $100 in your bank account, will you choose not to feed your child so you can pay a stupid fine?     Remember, this is a Democrat who imposed this scheme, and aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones helping the poor, downtrodden and disadvantaged?  Hell no!  FINE THEM!

50 mph on a divided highway where there are multiple ramps for entering said highway is not unreasonable at all. Youngstown is not the only city that reduces speed on a highway going through or near a major town.
Despite what the "Rick's" of this world say, many people DO reduce their speed regardless of how fast they want to go, because it is the law, like it or not.
Many of the officers I have seen with the radar guns are right out in plain site, not hiding behind bridge abutments.

You are right, that many Youngstowners live paycheck to paycheck - myself included!  So what does one do in that situation?  Obey the law. If they (I) don't want a ticket, can't afford to pay a traffic ticket, and will have to dip into food money or bill money to do so - you got it. DO NOT SPEED.  It's not rocket science. Pretty simple actually.

I don't give a flip what "feels natural". Obey the law, or pay the price. A principle as old as time itself.

[AllanY2525]

Allan, many of the crashes that you list that attribute excessive speed as a contributing factor are not talking about some guy
going 60 mph.  The "excessive speed" is 70, 80 or 90.  Driving 60 mph on 680 when everyone else is going 60 is imminently
safer than one guy going 50 and the rest going 60.  But going 80 when everyone else is at 60 is not.

This is why I made note of the fact that the accident I was referring to was an "extreme and rare case..." and why I also made note
of the fact that not all accidents are caused by speed, per-se.   We already partially agree.   I was using that accident to make the point
that speed DOES have something to do with traffic safety, because accidents are going to happen.  I'll stop shy of beating that horse again,
already made my position clear enough and gave facts that support it.

Cops hiding behind bridge abutments with cameras are not promoting safety in the least.  A cop in his car in the median is.   
Stationing officers on 680 at varying locations and in plain sight will actually result in people driving slower.  Hiding and fining
drivers will not have that effect.  It just makes money for the city.

I already said that it's better they stop people in person - because they [Police] are missing out on the opportunity to
catch drugs, firearms, outstanding warrants, bad/no license, etc offenders.  As it pertains to ME getting caught for
speeding - the method is irrelevant.  If there'yre gonna do things this way, I say fair warning is in order : PUT THE
WORDS "PHOTO ENFORCED" on all the speed limit signs.  Then motorists cannot say they "didn't know".

Speeding - in and of itself -  is a conscious and voluntary choice to disregard the law for one's own personal reason(s),
be it for personal comfort, a drive that feels more natural to the vehicle operator, etc.  It has consequences.  Wanna avoid
the consequences?  Stop speeding.

As to whether or not it will have any effect?   This battle has just started and it will be interesting to see what effect, if
any, the speed cameras have on people's driving habits along I-680.

In a city such as Youngstown where not many have a lot of extra money, I wonder what the payment percentage is going to
be for these fines.  When you live paycheck to paycheck and maybe only have $100 in your bank account, will you choose not
to feed your child so you can pay a stupid fine?     Remember, this is a Democrat who imposed this scheme, and aren't Democrats
supposed to be the ones helping the poor, downtrodden and disadvantaged?  Hell no!  FINE THEM! 

One thing I know for sure - If I was not making much money, and living paycheck to paycheck, and I was warned a month
in advance that there were going to be camera speed traps set up - I would certainly exercise the common sense to not risk
a week's worth of groceries on a ride that is only for a few minutes on, and a few miles along, I-680.  It's not worth it.  I'd
slow down for the measly few mile, get off at my exit and go on about my day - and the city would get none of my money.
As far as the fact that the current Mayor and admin. are Democrats, I could care less. 

I'm an independent and not overly fond of EITHER political party these days....

The ANTI-FRACKERS (which we BOTH dislike) are a perfect example of how motivated and PERSISTENT people can really be
when they want the laws CHANGED.  If enough people have a serious problem with the situation regarding these new
cameras and I-680, I have no doubt they will stand up for themselves and work to effect some change(s).     As I've said
before, GOOD for them - this is their right.

My guess is that ultimately there will be a Civil Suit filed by someone, as these camera citations are considered civil
penalties. 

Probably a class-action Civil Suit against the city/Police department.

I don't think the reason why people including me "speed" is because we want to save time.  It is because we wish to travel at speeds that are the
most comfortable and natural to drive at.   50 mph on a divided highway is just too slow.  It does not feel natural to drive at that speed.  50 mph
feels natural on a two lane road such as Route 616. 

That's a subjective argument, as different people feel "comfortable and natural" driving at different speeds.  A driver's sense of
comfort (or lack thereof) does not necessarily exempt them from the law.  I don't like the idea of overbearing government
bureaucracy either, but speed limits have reasons for existing.

What's in contention here is a NUMBER - and you are more than welcome to lobby to have that number changed.  Speed limits
get changed all the time, all over the country.  This means that, by default, there must be some mechanisms for chang-ING
speed limits.

There has to be a compromise in there somewhere.  Maybe someone should start a movement to have a referendum on the
speed limit(s) for I-680.  You and those who agree that the limit should be higher could gather the crash data for this stretch
of road and use it in your argument as to why the speed limit(s) should be raised along I-680. 

Maybe someone could dig up the original engineers' specs were when the road was built, and what the original engineers
felt was a safe speed for the road based on its design.

Regardless of what the Peggys of the world say, people will not heed speed limits that do not match what they feel should be the
natural speed for the road, just because some bureaucrat says so.

...And these people will continue to receive citations when caught....for their own stubbornness.... because the bureaucrats are
not going any where, any time soon.  Sad, but unfortunately true.

[Rick Rowlands]

I don't think the reason why people including me "speed" is because we want to save time.  It is because we wish to travel at speeds that are the most comfortable and natural to drive at.   50 mph on a divided highway is just too slow.  It does not feel natural to drive at that speed.  50 mph feels natural on a two lane road such as Route 616. 

Regardless of what the Peggys of the world say, people will not heed speed limits that do not match what they feel should be the natural speed for the road, just because some bureaucrat says so.   

Allan, many of the crashes that you list that attribute excessive speed as a contributing factor are not talking about some guy going 60 mph.  The "excessive speed" is 70, 80 or 90.  Driving 60 mph on 680 when everyone else is going 60 is imminently safer than one guy going 50 and the rest going 60.  But going 80 when everyone else is at 60 is not.

Cops hiding behind bridge abutments with cameras are not promoting safety in the least.  A cop in his car in the median is.   Stationing officers on 680 at varying locations and in plain sight will actually result in people driving slower.  Hiding and fining drivers will not have that effect.  It just makes money for the city.

In a city such as Youngstown where not many have a lot of extra money, I wonder what the payment percentage is going to be for these fines.  When you live paycheck to paycheck and maybe only have $100 in your bank account, will you choose not to feed your child so you can pay a stupid fine?     Remember, this is a Democrat who imposed this scheme, and aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones helping the poor, downtrodden and disadvantaged?  Hell no!  FINE THEM! 

[iwasthere]

Yes Iwasthere, the ticket had a picture of me driving my rickshaw and it was signed by Stewie of the City of Youngstown.

stewie had to sign it.he was hired to witness all moving violations done by you.

[Peggy Gurney]

There is a compromise.  Do not speed.   

[AllanY2525]

Lets all step back a moment and take a deep breath. This whole business didn't come up until this year after a series of serious accidents on 680 at or near one particular location. What I would like to see is a report that shows the number of accidents of all types on our freeways over a period of say five years. Records are kept that not only give the number, but also the location along the expressway. What stretches stand out as being the locations of most of the accidents? What were the conditions? If certain locations stand out year after year as the locations of most of the accidents, then set speed limits on those locations and enforce the speed limits, but do not lower the speed limit for the whole expressway. 

If I'm right the police will only be watching certain areas of the expressway where most of the accidents this year have taken place. This is quite logical and reasonable, and why anyone would object is beyond me.

Here's one place where an enterprising person who wants to know could look up incident information for Interstate 680 in
Youngstown. 

See the screen shot I've attached.  The URL is:   https://ext.dps.state.oh.us/CrashDataExtract/CrashDataExtract.aspx

I haven't figured out how to use it, but it's there.


The plain truth is, there HAVE been some bad accidents on i-680.  I have not gone and looked up
every single one, but  I believe the really horrible one you a referencing - The one the city can use as
its primary justification for the speed trap.  The guy was driving so fast that the collision literally ripped
the car in half and ejected his body from the wreckage. 

At his rate of speed he single handedly (and simultaneously) managed to defeat seat belts, air bags,
antilock brakes, collapsing steering column, etc. in that car...............somehow. 

An extreme and rare case on the far-end example, to be sure but for whatever reason it happened and
the driver is dead.  It could have been worse, had the driver hit cars along the way.  Speed was definitely a factor
with regard to the driver's safety and that of other drivers and passengers around him. 


If you were to drive the whole 16 miles of I-80 at 60 MPH, you're looking at 16 minutes travel time. 
Driving that same distance at average of 50 MPH the whole way - from end to end - would take just
over 19 minutes.  That's 3 minutes difference for ten MPH faster.   Now, consider that not ALL of I-680 is
zoned 50 MPH and that currently you ARE allowed to travel along parts of I-680 at higher speeds. Less
than 3 minutes difference.

This is why I see so little merit if one pits the "inconvenience" and "it takes too long at 50 MPH"  aspects
against the road safety aspects of speed.  Obeying the limit versus not obeying it and earning a fine if
caught.

I did a very quick and casual search on Google and found several news reports of accidents on i-680.
Here are a few of the search results from the first page. 

There are various causes for accidents , of course...I think I saw one that was caused by a medical
event (on the part of the driver) - but driving slower means having more time to react if someone ELSE
messes up, cuts you off,  has a heart attack behind the wheel, whatever and try to avoid a collision.

There has to be some kind of reasonable compromise, based on the actual facts around Interstate
680.  Hopefully, that compromise will be reached in due time.  It's a lot of different aspects of the same
issue weighing against one another.... with lots of valid arguments coming from multiple directions.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QE7RfKqAj1oJ:www.youngstownfire.com/index.php/component/content/article/2-uncategorised/404-news-article-archive%3Fyear%3D2014+&cd=23&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://www.wfmj.com/story/28080025/austintown-accident-backs-up-traffic-on-i-680

http://www.wfmj.com/story/29048166/police-poland-man-killed-in-i-680-crash

http://wkbn.com/2015/05/17/5-injured-in-i-680-accident-in-youngstown/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjADOApqFQoTCLz--qi27scCFYRuPgodSmILzQ&url=http%3A%2F%2F66.232.150.6%2Fnews%2F2015%2Fjun%2F01%2Ftraffic-slowed-i-680-south-due-accident%2F&usg=AFQjCNFjr2gaBenhB9j8YcWqRFtLuqizkg

http://accidentsinus.com/Accidents/Detail.aspx?Accident=53c013e5-de07-4967-9b2e-81b2f9a87a1c

http://accidentsinus.com/Accidents/Detail.aspx?Accident=4d047657-b984-43e2-b2ac-4dde1e8945d0

http://wkbn.com/2015/08/18/accident-shuts-down-i-80-westbound-in-austintown/

http://www.wfmj.com/story/10555682/accident-on-interstate-680

[Youngstownshrimp]

Yes Iwasthere, the ticket had a picture of me driving my rickshaw and it was signed by Stewie of the City of Youngstown.

[iwasthere]

I rec 'd one, I tour it up!

ytownshrimp do not fret I was the one that recorded your moving violation on 680. you were cited because you drove like mr. mcgoo.

[stewie]

Lol! You tore it up?! Lol!