Scary provisions in the proposed health care bill.

[Towntalk]

LIVING WILLS ... POWERS OF ATTORNEY ... DEATH


I have absolutely nothing against Living Wills, and have one myself as well as a Power of Attorney and a Will.

There should be no controversy over this.

It expresses my wishes and again, no controversy. No extraordinary measures ... and cremation.

I didn't need counseling ... and most reasonable feel the same.

By the way, I made out the documents in 1993.

At such point that I need to put them into effect they are all ready and only need to be notarized.

The party I named knows all the details, and where the documents are located.

[irishbobcat]

Death, Dishonesty & The GOP
By Terrance Heath

August 3, 2009 - 12:48pm ET


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In an effort to defeat universal health care, conservatives are engaging in a campaign of lies that will ultimately cause more families to suffer needlessly at a most painful time. As someone who worked for years with end-of-life care issues, and spent years working in the HIV/AIDS community, I cannot let it pass.

It's easy to play on people's fear of death. It's even easier when you're willing to lie outright as conservatives are doing in the health care debate.

A campaign on conservative talk radio, fueled by President Obama's calls to control exorbitant medical bills, has sparked fear among senior citizens that the health-care bill moving through Congress will lead to end-of-life "rationing" and even "euthanasia."

The controversy stems from a proposal to pay physicians who counsel elderly or terminally ill patients about what medical interventions they would prefer near the end of life and how to prepare instructions such as living wills. Under the plan, Medicare would reimburse doctors for one session every five years to confer with a patient about his or her wishes and how to ensure those preferences are followed. The counseling sessions would be voluntary.

But on right-leaning radio programs, religious e-mail lists and Internet blogs, the proposal has been described as "guiding you in how to die," "an ORDER from the Government to end your life," promoting "death care" and, in the words of antiabortion leader Randall Terry, an attempt to "kill Granny."

Though the counseling provision is a tiny part of a behemoth bill, the skirmish over end-of-life care, like arguments about abortion coverage, has become a distraction and provided an opening for opponents of the president's broader health-care agenda. At a forum sponsored by the seniors group AARP that was intended to pitch comprehensive reform, Obama was asked about the "rumors." He used the question to promote living wills, noting that he and the first lady have them.

Democratic strategists privately acknowledged that they were hesitant to give extra attention to the issue by refuting the inaccuracies, but they worry that it will further agitate already-skeptical seniors.

Where the consequence is needless suffering, I do not share Democratic strategists hesitance to refute inaccuracies.

That anyone would direct your doctor in "guiding you in how to die" is a lie.

That it amounts to "an ORDER from the Government to end your life" is a lie.

The truth is not that Democrats want to "kill Granny," but that Republicans want to ensure that "Granny" suffers needlessly in death, and that her family — in the midst of their pain — deal with the confusion of not knowing what kind of care "Granny" does or doesn't want, and what kind of measures she does and doesn't want taken.

Only a party that believes the Terri Schiavo spectacle was a boon to their cause could engage in a campaign to virtually ensure that many, many more such cases will happen — though most will not play out before news cameras, or serve as a political sideshow for the extreme right. They are risking the same result they got from the Schiavo story — that even more Americans will be appalled at a crass, politically driven intrusion into a deeply personal matter.

Grandma will die, someday. So will we all. It's perhaps the one indisputable reality every single person on earth has in common. We don't, however, like to think about it. So we don't think about it until it's too late, and our families suffer as a result. Republicans seem to want to make sure that continues to be true.

That's because the measure they're exploiting to defeat health care reform is really intended to facilitate more people getting advance directives. An advance directive is simply a document that serves to state what medical treatments you want or don't want, and what measure you do or do not want taken if you are unable to make medical decisions for yourself. In other words it speaks for you when you cannot speak for yourself.

In addition, a medical power power of attorney allows you to designate someone you trust to make medical decisions for you if you are unable to make them yourself.

The question isn't "How do you want to die?" The question is simply: "What kind of care do you want, and what measures do you want taken if — at the end of life — you are unable to speak for yourself?"

It's a decision that, in the absence of an advance directive or a living will, falls to a spouse or the closest family members. In the absence of an advance directive and/or medical power of attorney, families are often torn apart with fighting over their loved-ones wishes and trying to determine what those wishes were, leading to years of courtroom battles, while their loved one lingers.

Health care reform advocates don't want to "Kill Granny." Neither do conservatives. I'll even give them the benefit of the doubt that they don't want your family battling it out over Granny's hospital bed, or in court for years and years, as Granny lies there, no longer able to say what she wants. But that's the ultimate outcome of their dishonest campaign.

I saw it up close and personal when I volunteered in the HIV/AIDS community, while in college. I saw partners who had spent decades together, and spent years caring for one another, kept apart because they were "not family" and had no legal standing that anyone was obligated to recognize. One man knocked on the door of the organization where I worked, and when I answered told me with tears in his eyes that he had just been barred from his partner's bedside by the man's estranged family, and even ejected from the home the two of them had shared. He had no legal standing as a spouse, of course, and the couple had no legal documents that might have given him the right be there.

Legal spouses don't have that problem. The reason that 30 or more courts ruled in Michael Schiavo's favor is because he was the legal spouse. Without that even the legal status of having a medical power of attorney, let alone being legally married, the people whose pain I witnessed were extremely vulnerable. Even couples who have those documents, like Janice Langbehn and Lisa Pond, are vulnerable if they travel — or go anywhere at all — without them.

My husband and I both have advance directives stating what measures we want and don't want taken, in the event that we are unable to make those decisions ourselves. We each have medical powers of attorney, designating one of us to make make medical decisions for the other, if either of us is unable to make those decisions for ourselves. We have them because our experience has taught us how necessary they are, and the consequences of not having them. We have them because we know how vulnerable we are, and how vulnerable our children are without them.

The truth is that most Americans are vulnerable in this regard. According to a FindLaw.Com survey, 67 percent of Americans don't have a living will. That means more than two-thirds of Americans may have little to no say in the care they receive or the measures that are taken if they are terminally ill and/or incapacitated.

That's perhaps one of the worst aspects of the Republican's dishonest campaign. It has the potential to make people even more vulnerable, not merely by leaving their wishes undocumented, but by using fear to discourage people from even talking about this most personal decision with one of the most appropriate people: their doctor. After all, a personal physician who knows her patient's wishes, can be an effective advocate and help family understand the most compassionate ways to honor their loved one's wishes.

That's why, wherever you stand on health care reform, I urge you to please use this as a "teachable moment." Sit down with your doctor and/or your family now — while you can still speak to them and they can still hear you — and talk about what care you want and don't want, and what measures you do or don't want taken, if you are ill or injured and unable to speak for yourself. Talk about who you want to make decisions for you if you are unable to speak for yourself.

Make sure you have an advance directive. (You can download copies of your state's advance directive forms here.) Make sure you have a medical power of attorney. Make sure everyone knows.

At the same time, don't let the right insert politics into a matter that's ultimately between you, your family and your doctor. The measure that members of the conservative fringe are exploiting in the process does nothing more than encourage doctors and patients to have that most-important, most-avoided conversation.

They're lying as a means to a political end, and it will cause more families to suffer needlessly. It's not just inaccurate. It's not just wrong. It's immoral.

[sfc_oliver]

Gee, So were mine. I even paid state taxes while stationed outside the state. In fact i paid Ohio state tax for 22 years and was not ever stationed in the state. I also paid Federal Income tax and Medicare. Do not tell me about paying taxes.

As I said no one here would understand the situation I am trying to correct. My wife was cut off from our military health coverage and her medicare, because of the way the Medicare law and the military regulations are worded. Everyone agrees that this is not what should have happened. But no one will fix it for the next guy. And by everyone I mean Ryan, Voinivich, Brown. The Senior enlisted advisor to the Assistant Secretary of Defense healthcare, The office of the Command Sergeant major of the Army, Etc etc etc.

Now you want the same thing get out there and earn it. But don't be surprised when you have zero dental coverage, almost no vision coverage, and are told which doctors you can see and how often, because that my friend is what I have.

[Dan Moadus]

Quote from Rusty River

And as far as Ryan's credentials compared to yours, that can be considered laughable. Maybe you can make a case about the strength of your experience should you decide to run for city council again. But you're running for a federal office. What experiences do you have outside of the valley? The working class here is NOT the same as the working class in the rest of the nation. How could you possibly relate to them? You are completely out of touch with the world outside of Girard, Ohio. You've had no formal education in the past 40 years. You have no college degree. I'm willing to bet that the majority of Ryan's staff have graduate degrees, as does he.

When it came down to it, Ryan chose to educate and better himself, and whether you agree with him or not, you can't argue that he has not been a huge success in his career choice. You chose to follow the status quo. The valley has a very low percentage of people with college and graduate degrees. Maybe that is a big reason for why it has taken the area so long to progress.

So, I see how you view the people in our Valley. "The working class here is NOT the same as the working class in the rest of the nation." What an elitist you are. Tell me, do you think Ryan shares your low opinion of the folks who live here?

Looks to me like we have a Congress full of educated people. How's that working out for us?
[/quote]

[sfc_oliver]

Please not another one. You want to join Dennis in attacking my benefits? They are a far far way from what I was promised by this Government of ours back in 1971 when I first enlisted. Back then it was simple, if you served 20 years you received free health and Dental for life. Well that disappeared around year 15 for me.

The situation with Ryan is that they do not understand what I am telling them, even when the person who answers healthcare questions in the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Times explained it to them they do not understand.

I have been trying to get this situation corrected for over 2 years now. And I will not explain it because no one on this board will understand it anyway.

But regardless of how I feel about Government controlled health care, My own benefits have nothing to do with it. I have earned everything I get. And then some. And that's some straight talk.

[sfc_oliver]

Ryans staff is so well educated they told me that i should "expect to lose".

I would vote for my dog before Ryan.

[Rick Rowlands]

Rusty, Dan is just demonstrating the fallacy of taking action on something without having had time to research it fully.  Wait a minute, thate EXACTLY what Ryan does.  So Dan IS qualified to run for congress!

[Dan Moadus]

Rusty,
I think you may have overlooked the statement preceding my post where I indicate that the information was not checked by me. I said that I would check it out, and I did.

As far as Ryan being seasoned. What exactly is he seasoned in? He's never even had a job. Do you honestly think he can understand what working people are going through? And as far as his staff running circles around me. That's a laugh.

[sfc_oliver]

As long as there is any remote possibility for the Government to run this show I will be opposed to it.

[Dan Moadus]

To be fair, as I was the person who posted the original posts that made assertions and claimed they could be verified by the listed page numbers, I have been reading the bill and matching it up with the claims in the post, and have found that many of the claims are exaggerated. Whoever created the list went out of their way to interpret the bill's language to make it more dismal appearing than it is.   

I did preface my original post with this statement, "I haven't personally checked these out as I just received this information, but I will. Let's see if they're true." so I don't feel I have anything to apologize for; but fair is fair, so I do admit that there are exaggerations in it.

I will say though that after reading many sections of the bill, it is "dumbfoundingly" complex. Making it possible for people to exaggerate its meanings (both ways). As one Senator put it, "Maybe something this complex and hard to understand isn't a good way to manage our health care system."

The impression one gets from exploring its depths is that it goes far, far beyond just providing affordable insurance, sticking the governments nose into every nook and cranny. As just one example, off the top of my head; it dictates that upon passage of the bill, some hospitals are prohibited from adding on any rooms, additions, or beds without government approval, including "community involvement", whatever that means.

"FACILITY CAPACITY.—Except as provided in para23
graph (2), the number of operating rooms, pro24
cedure rooms, or beds of the hospital at any
time on or after the date of the enactment of
this subsection are no greater than the number
of operating rooms, procedure rooms, or beds,
respectively, as of such date."

My opposition to the bill however, is greater after reading much of it, than before, and there are many questions I would like answered. How I wonder, did this bill get created so fast. It was mere weeks after "Cap and Trade" that this bill was presented, so who created it and how; and who from the private sector provided input. I remember when "Hillary Care" was being developed. It was a long process, and many questions were asked about who was consulted and who had a hand in developing it. None of those questions are being asked. Instead we get a bill presented that no one knows how it came about, and Congress is being pushed to pass it in weeks without reading it.

I think it should also be asked of every Legislator whether or not they would accept this program, and have their health care dictated by it.

[irishbobcat]

GOP Health Care Lie: Killing Old People
Ok this particular lie is so lacking in common sense it actually scares me that people are stupid enough to believe this at all.(But then again the birthers exist so stupidity is obviously rampant.) But yet there are people sucking it in hook, line and sinker. Even worse there are right ring radio blow hards and even Congress people spreading this lie.

One of their newest tricks is to cite page numbers of the bill to give their lie legitimacy knowing of course very few will actually look to see what it says.

Now what is actually in the bill is a benefit that allows for the payment for end of life counseling no more then once every 5 years if you want it. End of life counseling is something a patient would request if and only if they want it. It in no way is required. And what is end of life counseling exactly? It is to allow you to create a living will. Living wills were created by GOP legislators many years ago. A living will simpley states who can make decisions for you should you be incapacitated and what extraordinary life extending procedures you would or would not want done.

There is nothing in this part of the bill that includes any government involvement at all other then it will be paid for if you choose to have such a counseling appointment with your own doctor.

Why does the "Right" always resort to lies? Because when they debate based on fact, they lose.

[irishbobcat]

Mr. Moadus is running for Congress.....let him find it.....big shot

Only companies with something to hide should be afraid of an audit.........

school districts are always subject to audits.........

what's the big deal....unless your an insurance cheat like some of our insurance and HMO's are NOW!!!!

[Rick Rowlands]

You couldn't find that on your own? 

[Towntalk]

HOUSE ENERGY AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE - U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

All documents

http://energycommerce.house.gov/

America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, Bill Text

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

[irishbobcat]

show me an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT SITE WITH THE WHOLE BILL OR LANGUAGE>>>> or can't you conservatives find one??/