Mahoning Valley Forum

This whole system of dealing with vacant properties and problem properties is disfunctional to say the least.  There is no one entity to turn to when you have a problem house in your neighborhood.

The adopt-a-house idea might work.  I sure hope the group gets enough volunteers to clean up and board up these vacant houses around Wick Park.

One person expressed the need to routinely check on boarded houses to make sure the property is secure.   Every block watch should frequently check the vacant homes and immediately take steps to protect the property from vandals.

I attended the meeting this evening.  Here are my thoughts as someone who comes into this from the outside.

1) Who sponsored that meeting?  I heard about four or five groups mentioned.

2) There seemed to be quite a bit of support for "new legislation".  We tried the new legislation idea after the Stambaugh building incident.  Where does that stand now?  Legislation is a "feel good" fix, but unless it has teeth and is enforced it doesn't help the situation.    What about a new law that would give property owners the option of forfeiting a vacant property voluntarily for forgiveness of tax obligations? If I own a vacant house in the city that has lets say 10,000 in tax liens, I give the house to the government and then just walk away.  The govt. writes off the lost taxes and then sells the property at a nominal price to a new owner who signs a binding agreement pledging to maintain and improve the property.  Would that work?  Kinda like bankruptcy for houses.

3) Ron Edelstein presented a plan for forfeiture of properties when property tax liens exceed the value of the property. He was shot down without much further debate.  Ron claims to have done this many times, so may have merit.  But nobody will even look into this further.  I am not an expert in this area but I would think that this could be a tool to acquire some properties and shouldn't have been dismissed so readily.

4) The one good thing that I saw was a willingness to band together and boar up vacant houses.  I saw the enthusiasm that always accompanies these ideas.  People are stirred up by an event (arsons, Stambaugh windows removed)then band together to tackle the problem (roving vigilante house boarding parties, landmark structure ordinance), and then the excitement fades away and the effort fizzles. (Landmark ordinance apparently went nowhere.)  What will happen to the board'em up parties?  Not trying to be a downer but thats the life cycle of crisis caused community involvement.  Maybe one or two people will be left after a few months who would continue to maintain the boarded up houses.  I hope it doesn't end up like that.  I would like to see the group maintain its enthusiasm for this.

5) some ideas were put forth to put lights up on vacant properties, or to board up windows or do other maintenance and then add additional liens on the properties to cover the costs.  Liens are why these properties remain vacant.  Adding more will just dig a deeper grave for that particular property.

At least I finally met Allan!  Newest member of the Doers club!

Hopefully the "board'em up" group stays together long enough to get the job done.  But, after that, the "adopt-a-house/street" group will, hopefully, keep them maintained.  At least, that's what I think the intention of the adopt-a-house/street idea should be.  Some of us don't live in the neighborhood, so can't "adopt" a house even though we might like to.

Rick - it was great to finally be able to associate a face with your name...way overdue.

For those on this board who were not at the meeting, I brought a digital camcorder and
made a rudimentary recording of the majority of the meeting. There is little to no footage of
the audience, out of respect for their privacy, etc... but the main speakers did not have a
problem with being on film, including representatives from Resettle Youngstown, the Youngstown
Fire Department, etc.

I have about an hour's worth of video to look through, and will try to get some of the more
relevant highlights of the meeting converted into short clips and up on the website as soon as I
can. 

I agree with Rick that right now, emotions are running high (mine included...I had a **lot** of
complaints to voice at the meeting).  I made a donation to Resettle Youngstown - and was happy
to do so.  Jim Converse is a good guy and cares a whole lot about what he is doing to help the city,
and the neighborhood.

For now, it is okay to be re-active to the problems at hand... but in the long term, we will have to
be pro-active on a sustained basis in order to save these properties and, ultimately, find new owners
and uses for them to turn them back into productive assetts again.

As for the person from downtown that said the city has to keep empty streets lit because of liability
concerns, how about closing off the the street if there is nothing left on it and then removing the street lights
once the street is closed to traffic - this should eliminate any liability issues concerning motorists driving
down an unlit street, right?  The amount of electricity save can then be diverted elsewhere, where it is
needed much, much more.  Doesn't the city buy it's electricity at a bulk rate for public lighting, etc ?

The television news media were conspicuous by their absence at the meeting - did anyone call any of the local
broadcasters and inform them that the meeting was going to take place? 

Rusty - I think it was you who said that you might be able to get me access to the insides of some of the
houses around the park, and close by while I am in town this time... I want to take you up on that opportunity
and get as many photos as possible.  My only alterior motive here is a love of historic architecture.. but showcasing
them on the web site might persuade parties with the financial resources and the motivation to make an investment in
one of them, fix it up and bring it back to life.

If there is anything that I could be doing to help via my website, I am re-iterating my offer to provide hosting
space - I own a domain and the physical server hardware, so we could pretty much web-publish as much
material as we want, including information like neighborhood surveys, concerns of the stake holders, problems
dealing with the city and county to resolve issues, change procedures, etc.  It may be one way to help hold
city council accountable for their actions - or lack thereof.

I, too liked the idea of "adopt a house", or block, etc.  If serious, committed individuals are willing to step
forward and start keeping an eye on these at-risk properties it would really help in preventing the same fate
that 259 Park Avenue suffered fom occuring again.

There seemed to be a general concensus that there are three basic things that can make a vacant property
much less likely to be a target:

1) Board the place up properly, then re-check it frequently to ensure that it stays that way.
2) Keep the grounds up, including cutting back or outright removing bushes, etc that could hide would-be vandals
3) Light the place at night - by whatever means available/necessary.

Rusty, the million dollar question is invalid.  it is sad that many would like to ignore the facts and continue to go down the road of inaction or feel good band aid reaction.  For privacy sake, get in touch with me if you or anyone else wish to engage in the facts.

To answer your question about "why didn't I do it?" , again, I did on properties my investors were interested in.  Again, I am not interested in owning mortars and brick anymore, I already live in an historic home on the northside and it was secured while it was boarded up, back then the method was bank owned properties.  Now, as you heard, banks don't even want to own properties, because things have gone so far downhill in real estate investing in Youngstown.

Rick,

It was good to see you at the meeting,  it is not suppose to rain today, so I'll be out at the eastside farm digging the ponds again.  I need to release some of this stress from last nights community disorganizing.

You know, although I lived in the northside for many years, over ten years ago I found Poland was a community at the cutting edge in community action, so I volunteered there and you saw the results.  Free outdoor movies, parks, pathways, country store, etc.

Last night, was like stepping back in time when I attended NSCC meetings then, but truthfully, it is worse now.  One thing I learned, we will never advance when we as a community depend on the public sector to solve our problems.  In Poland, we recognized right away that the Village government was an obstruction rather than a promoter. Our community group in Poland, never waited for public money , we raised the funding ourselves and initiated projects as  private sector volunteers.  Everything I heard last night was the same sorry diatribe of anti free enterprise.  One bright spot, the public sector is broke and insolvent meaning the only way out is the private sector and the return of "we have to do it ourselves."   

THEN DO IT, RON! I think everyone is really tired of hearing YOU complain about how everyone is hoping the "public" sector will do something about anything. At no time last night was was the city asked to provide anything other than initial assistance in boarding up the house which they promised to do anyway (which they did today). The action plans that were discussed where completely resident driven. When it came time at the end of the meeting to designate work group assignments and the group was formed to work through the title situation (and explore your suggestion further), you had already left (offer still stands by the way).


But let's just right to it now:
You stated that you know of a way how to do an independent appraisal of homes that may lower the assessed value of a home to the point where it is lower than the tax lien, thereby allowing for forfeiture (although Lien Forward and YNDC are attempting to do the very same thing at present and state that this isn't possible). You also state that you have an "investor" willing to offer a loan to cover the legal fees. More importantly, you state that you have a entity (Nevel's Temple - a Wick Park neighborhood stakeholder) willing to serve as the entity willing and responsible to receive the tax certificate. If this actually can be done, on behalf of the entire group: WHAT IS THE HOLD UP? It's not like you need our permission? What am I missing? We want the houses turned over to local stakeholders!

Phil

P.S. We do free outdoor movies in Youngstown as well, Ron. Get several hundred a week downtown in the summer at the Covelli Center. Real nice event. You were part of organizing that effort...then quit on us, remember?

Sorry, I'm a very tolerant person and typically the last person to lose diplomacy but I think just about everyone is tired of your divisive approach. It's not helpful.

Good Afternoon everyone, I have two questions.....


1) There were valuable things in the 259 Park Carriage House as of last fall. Most people stealing were looking for copper etc not antiques etc. When the carraige house was torn down did they salvage anything inside?

2) That property was a Vansickle property... not sighting him for the fire BUT, that property was his responsibility, such as many other properties of his in decay what can we do about this? I thought about a letter to the editor to address the issue but wasn't sure?

I'm trying to do it, Phil, but it seems you guys stand in the way.

At the meeting, I brought two stakeholders from Rodef Sholom,  and Rev. Nevel.

One of the Rodef Sholom members walked out and Rev. Nevel left early saying that all everyone was talking about was the Arson and not a plan.  And I'm not even going to say what Herb Soss said when he vacated.

Point, you recorded on Tyler's blog that you were in, and everyone was ready to delve into the tax cert. approach.  When I stood up and started you remained silent and Ian tried to debunk the whole idea, you can verify this right here in this blog from Rowlands comment that I was shot down in the meeting.

Bottom line, for what ever reason, you guys are not going to support a tax cert. approach.  I called Gillespie and Ian yesterday, and as usual Ian doesn't return my calls.  The question about appraisals is very easy to understand in regards to the abandoned Van Sickle property, an independent appraiser will value them with a negative value, because they are now a liability, demolition cost, anyone in real estate can get this.  If they were occupied and up to code, the appraiser will place value on them, not when they are abandoned.  You know even Debra Weaver an attorney, said I am right, in writing.  So really Phil, I'm hearing more people tired of listening to you guys obstruct.

Oh, and about the outdoor movies, Yellow Creek Theater just donated a brand new  indoor screen to Lyndsey, is that giving up?  For the record, I recall you resigned from the city before the movies even started and we continued to work with Dubos , truth is they didn't need our help anymore.

Lastly Phil, why don't you guys just be up front with the community, as you told me awhile back?  The MVOC is hard at work pushing for legislation on another landbank and eminent domain powers, and you made the statement that the county tax cert. approach was a failure.   

You know, I really tried because I am a stakeholder, I'll just continue to produce with like minded people, I'll see you guys at the shrimp festival next year.

Ron:

Again, we'll spell it out plain as day for you:

1. No one thinks the tax certificate plan is a bad idea (if it is an actual possibility). Some folks doing this same thing in another neighborhoods have suggested that what you are suggesting has been tried and can't be done. The Wick Park group (including myself, Deb Weaver, everyone...right here in writing and on Tyler's blog) is saying to you that if you believe that this can be done through some sort of independent appraisal process, have an investor willing to create a loan situation for the legal fees, and have a group like Nevel's Temple willing to serve as the tax certificate: WE SUPPORT THIS APPROACH AND WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO MOVE FORWARD AND WILL ASSIST HOWEVER NEEDED. Prove that it can be done! No one is or even could "get in the way" if you wanted to proceed.

Is this clear enough? We have contacts at MVOC for Nevel's Temple. I will personally contact them and explain the same.

Everyone else who stayed to the end of the meeting understands the plan: from the communications aspect, to the adopt-a-street project (update: the city has boarded up the homes around Wick Park this week), the legal team aspect and the regular monthly meetings that will follow. This is what we can do as citizens.

If you are sincere about exploring the tax certificate situation, then please do so and please keep us updated. This is, unquestionably, the biggest piece.

This fourm can serve as a record of conversation & responsibilities.

Phil

P.S. Regarding the movies: I was with the city: purchased all the movies, worked out the deal with Trumbull Arts for projector use & space with Eric Ryan at the Covelli Centre, purchased the materials for the screen from Herb Soss, built the screen with Nick and Paris and successfully exectued a 7 week movie series in the summer. I began with the MVOC Dec. 1st. Also assisted this past summer (as needed) on my own time. Everyone knows this including yourself, Ron.

Good luck with the shrimp. I do hope you are successful.

I DO NOT LIKE USING ORGANIZE RELIGION AS A AGENT TO RECEIVE ANY TYPE OF ASSISTANCE FOR ANY PROJECT IN THE CITY AND ITS PROPERS. THESE ORGANIZE RELIGION CAN DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ANYONE THE CHOOSE TO DUE TO CURRENT LAWS THAT HAVE BEEN UPHELD BY THE US SUPREME COURT. PHIL I DO NOT LIKE MVOC BECOMING BUDDIES WITH ANY ORGANIZE RELIGION TO HELP WITH MVOC CAUSES. MVOC WAS CREATED BY THE WEAN FOUNDATION TO HELP STRUGGLING CITIES TO MAINTAIN SUSTAINABILITY THROUGH COMMUNITY ORGANIZORS FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE WITHOUT HAVING DISCRIMATION IN THEIR MISSION STATEMENT. WHAT PERTURB ME WAS I WAS TOLD BY SEVERAL PEOPLE AT RECENT DINNER AT VERNONS IN NILES AS WAY TO MEET OTHER CONCERN CITIZENS THAT NO WINE OR BEER OR ADULT REFRESHMENTS WERE TO BE SERVED DUE TO THE FACT SOME RELIGIOUS LEADERS OBJECTED. IT WAS NOT THEIR DECISION TO MAKE FOR THIS GROUP. I AM ARAID THE RELIGIOUS CIRCLES WILL TAKE OVER  MVOC AND THAT WILL BE A SAD DAY FOR MVOC.

Thank you, iwasthere. Your concern is duly noted. I can assure you that no group - religious or otherwise - will "take over" MVOC. MVOC is a blend of neighborhood/grassroots, faith-based, and institutional leadership. While many churches are members, so are other folks like yourself who choose not to be associated with organized religion. This diversity is what is the strength of the organization.

In regards to Wick Park, what is being suggested can be done by any entity. Ron had suggested that Nevel's Temple was interested in exploring the forfeiture, however, if this process is indeed possible, any other group could do so as well.

...and just as a point of information, the Wick Park situation is not a MVOC "campaign". I live in Wick Park and have volunteered to assist on an as needed basis but am learning as I go as well, as I think we all are.

First of all, Happy Thanksgiving Phil.

Okay, let's work.  First of all, we need a letter from Nevel's Temple, the City and the MVOC, establishing the urgency and situation of the Van Sickle properties.  This letter should request that all the tax certs. be donated to the community through Nevel's Temple.  This letter needs to be addressed to American Tax Funding, Cintina and Optimum, c/o Atty. John Zomoida.  Contrary to me doing it, this is a collective community project and not one person.  I already spoke with Rev. Nevel and had him come to the last meeting.  Someone from the group needs to secure the letter from the City and MVOC.  Once we have the letter, I will scan and e-mail to all parties.

Although this is not part of the process, I would like to see the case about Lien Forward and YNDC attempt to secure property through a tax cert. forfeiture.  A lot was said about this but no one has revealed the details, this might be helpful and I can have Atty. Chevlen look at what the problem may be.  I suspect, the appraisal might be greater than the tax cert. in this situation, meaning a nonforfeiture.

I forgot to add, Nevel's Temple will not be the owner of the properties, but merely the owner of the tax cert. to enable a forfeiture.  During the forfeiture process, if the free market produces an end user of the properties, the title can proceed into that entity once forfeited.  Remember, this forfeiture is only possible if the private tax cert. holder is willing and can be convinced to donate the certs. for community betterment.

i and other forum members would like to be kept abreast on this matter via this chatroom or public meetings.

iwasthere, You seem to be outspoken and concerned about the northside community and its renaissance.  We need all the help and assistance if we wish to better our community.  Can you give us an informal resume and track record of yourself so we may request your specific skills?  We all need to work together and produce,  I feel you may have something to contribute to the work load here.

I hope you don't mind my directness, but I was a military brat, my father did tours in Korea and was a green beret in Vietnam.  So I was taught early on that we all need to pull our own weight , because the ones who don't are the first eliminated.

You stated here that you want to be kept abreast of our onslaught, it would only be fair if you also keep us informed of your efforts as well.   

ytownshrimp when i come home from vacation and off location in a few weeks i will give you a list of my talents and skills for the northside's renaissance.

I just spoke with Rev. Nevel of Nevel's Temple on Elm street.  His congregation is proceeding to request the tax certs' from the private holders, their interest is to secure the Illinois (Van Sickle) property for parking. Although the the other properties will be included, Nevel's Temple will offer 264 Broadway if successful, to any investor capable of restoring the mansion for the legal fees incurred.

Although this strategy was outlined in this post, there has been no feedback from the parties concerned, therefore, Nevel's Temple does not expect any conflict to their approach.

"Chill Out Dirty Water" , the congregation is trying to do something.  That's why Lincoln labelled the naysayers "The Do Nothing Party", like you they did nothing but vomit excrement.  It's funny that you would never reveal your biography and are not proud of your name.  Is it because your life is a wasted mediocre life span of a flea?  Come on, grace us with your accomplishments, prove to us and show us you are truly concerned about your community.  Take off the mask and back your words up, otherwise we are tired of your words without action.

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on December 08, 2009, 08:43:25 AM
"Chill Out Dirty Water" , the congregation is trying to do something.  That's why Lincoln labelled the naysayers "The Do Nothing Party", like you they did nothing but vomit excrement.  It's funny that you would never reveal your biography and are not proud of your name.  Is it because your life is a wasted mediocre life span of a flea?  Come on, grace us with your accomplishments, prove to us and show us you are truly concerned about your community.  Take off the mask and back your words up, otherwise we are tired of your words without action.

Shrimp you grew a pair Eh?? I don't post too much here, but I did read somewhere that you were outed on the board about a week or so ago right?? So now you seem to be mad about this?? As far as I'm concerned Shrimp... You have no room to talk about anything here.. You talk about the do nothing party... Let's talk about the Do anything for personal gain Party... that would be you sir..

Hold on here folks! There's no reason to make things personal here. We need to work together if we want to see results in our neighborhood.

I think the churches need to be involved in this discussion. They are stakeholders in this neighborhood and they have an invested interest in seeing the neighborhood improve.

The neighborhood association has made it a priority to see the big historic homes around the park that Van Sickle owns get secured and re-used, rather than demolished. However, the apartment building behind the church is in deplorable condition and should probably be demolished. If we bring the churches together as part of this ongoing neighborhood planning discussion, we can collaborate to find a solution that works best for everyone with an invested interest in seeing the revival of the neighborhood.

atech101, Your 100% right we do need to work together to revive our neighborhoods, but here is the catch. Youngstown has alot of people like Shrimp that have bought up property and let them Rot away to nothing.. I feel they too are part of the problem not the solution.. He is so busy trying to pat himself on the back, it just makes me sick.. and I had to voice my opinion.

                                                                                      The Woozle

Atek,

Which apartment building are you referring to?  Behind which one of the churches?

1000 Bryson

Talked to D'Avignon this morning about what permits are needed for deconstruction, he says the Nevel's Temple needs to see Jeannie at Bldg.  He also stated that since the buildings are to be deconstructed privately without Federal money, an historic commitee review is not required.  I will ask Rev. Nevels to secure the permits tomorrow.

The first part of the decon process will be to remove the alluminum siding on 139 Park before crack heads steal it and the landlord gets hauled into court.  A nonprofit in Poland is interested in two of the greek revival porch pediments (Bryson) to be rebuilt as a concession building.

So "Weasel" , I guess I'm patting myself on the back again and a made some PERSONAL gain today, dah...Oh, and the good congregation of Nevels Temple bought the buildings just to let them rot.  What a bunch of backwards people who aren't even proud of their real insignificant names.

Why are you always trying to argue with people? Half of the posts on this board have turned into negative arguments since you joined. If you're doing good things, great, if other people aren't, ok. Feel free to tell us what you're up to and leave everyone else and their effort or lack of effort alone. Thanks.

I will give you the golf clap "BrineShrimp".... Don't break your arm.. Shouldn't you save the siding for when scrap goes Up?? and will you be selecting any trees to recycle as well??

I personally think Deconstruction is a wonderful Idea..

The Woozle

Well, here is an update or obstruction, whatever you want to call it.

I just returned from a meeting with the city demolition department.  No deconstruction can proceed without an Ohio EPA asbestos inspection and removal.  This will make deconstruction not cost effective and landfills can fill up with more waste.  So now the good people of the northside can continue to bulldoze our way to progress.

I tried, but the walls seem too tall for us shrimps to climb.  I'll just go back to digging more ponds.  I already acquiesced with the OEPA on shrimp farming.

ytownshrimp deconstruction has been a success in other parts of the country why not ytown?

Steve Novotney, just informed me that the two houses deconstructed had to go thru an EPA inspection, one had asbestos and needed to be abated.  If abatement let's say cost $5000 , why would one deconstruct when demolition only cost $2000?

The $2000 demolition doesn't really do anything with the asbestos.  It's still there when the demolition is done.  That might be OK, (not really) until someone wants to use the land again. (not to mention all the other material - hazardous or not - that will still be there, too)

So what should the owner of the building do?   Their options, 2K for demo, 5K for deconstruction, $20K for rehab.?   Or abandon the building and stop investing in Youngstown.  Bingo!  this is what everyone is doing not investing in Youngstown so the value of a house is now lower than a third world nation.  I'm not being sarcastic here, this is the reality of our town, we have made it so that no astute investor will invest in housing.   I am not even mentioning the security aspect of owning property, I believe it was Ciciro or Plato who wrote if a city cannot protect it's assets, it is the demise of the city.

You can use the analogy for anything  else, manufaturing clothes, TV's, cars, etc.   Whether right or wrong, redtape and politics have reduced us to unable to compete, socialism is the only answer.

The unintended consequences of environmental regulation.  Whats the Green party's response to this I wonder?

Generally when houses are deconstructed the materials that are salvaged in the deconstruction are sold.  If the materials in the house in question are worth $3,000 or more then you are still better off doing the deconstruction.   Those materials do not end up in a landfill and someone else will have the opportunity to use them. 

Steve, you have been studying alot, this is good.  Let's take this to the real world, 139 Park, if we decide to deconstruct and take a gamble that there is no friable asbestos.  If our bet was wrong and there is asbestos that requires $5000 to abate, now we are on the hook to get the structure abated.  My advise to the owners, is not to take this chance and hire Mckinley to demolish the structure for $2000, I have done this many times, clean, simple and no liability.  Sadly, this is the wrong way, but the only way out for an investor.

I had my apartment building tested for asbestos prior to removing every ceiling inside
the entire building (water damage from the bad roof that was on the place).  The
walls tested at less than 5% asbestos content, the ceilings tested at just under 7%.

The entire testing and lab costs came in at around $250.00

All this means is that we had to wear respirators while taking down the ceilings, and
keep everything sprayed down with water during demolition in order to keep the fibers
from becoming airborne.  We also wore disposable clothing over our work clothes, which
was taken off and trashed at the end of the day.

Asbestos, if not inhaled into the lungs, is harmless to the rest of the human body.
It is a mineral, mined out of the earth - and once returned to the earth (ie: landfill)
it is rendered totally harmless.  It does not contaminate ground water, etc in and of itself.
To this day, brake pads and shoes for our cars and trucks are still made of the stuff.

I would venture to say that, if the property is properly deconstructed and the materials
carefully salvaged and then sold off, then the church should be able to make a profit
on the deconstruction - despite the costs of abating the asbestos.

The oak flooring alone is worth a considerable amount of money - believe me!  I am
in the process of replacing oak woodwork in the house I am working on and it costs a TON
of money. The cost of replacing all of the downstairs floors alone in this house would be
several thousand dollars, if I were to use new 3/4" tongue-and-groove oak to do it.

The floor boards from these row houses could be carefully removed (cut the nails
from underneath with a special oscillating saw) de-nail them, run them through a planing mill
and voila!  You now have recycled, tongue-and-groove, solid hardwood flooring material with
a freshly milled, ready to sand and finish surface on it.

This flooring could be sold to someone at a nice profit - many rooms worth.  Enough to do one
or two entire houses with - either a restoration on an older home, or a nice "added touch" to
a newly-constructed one...the kind of amenity that most of us could not afford these days, were
we to build a new home.

There were some pocket doors in the row houses back when I was looking to buy them - if these
are still present, they could be stripped and re-finished and sold.  Pocket doors are a commodity
in the architectural antiquities markets, as are old woodwork pieces (door frames, window frames,
molding, etc).

The church should go ahead and spend the couple hundred bucks and get the inspection.
The fact that the row houses at 1000 Bryson (corner of Park Ave) have forced air gas heat
instead of steam is a good thing - less to worry about.

I toured these row houses a couple years ago because I was interested in buying them and
rehabbing them.  I ended up buying other property instead because of some old "Mark Mallen" liens
and encumberances on the deed to the place, which the former owner was unable or unwilling to
get cleared prior to the sale to me.  I even had an ernest deposit on the place.

If the church were to check around and get some bids, they could probably find an outfit willing
to do the asbestos abatement at a reasonable cost - the plaster on the walls and ceilings is the
main concern.  The roof on the building has been replaced numerous times, so I doubt that there is
any significant amount of asbestos in the roofing materials....the original roof was most likely made
of gray slate.

Hmmm....,  I just spoke with an old demolition contractor I know and used in the city.  He told me that the normal practice in demolition included salvage rights.  So if the church secured a demo permit and initially salvaged everything that did not disturb what can be assumed has asbestos, falls under the demolition permit.  What can be salvaged without disturbing possible asbestos material?  Fixtures, hardware, trim, doors, hardwood floors, trusses, anything that does not make asbestos friable if present. 

It appears the only difference between salvaging and deconstruction is the permits.  The walls and ceilings for the most part are what will become friable if deconstructed and according to the deconstruction experts I listened to, they are the most tedious and less cost effective to mess around with.  So the church can just demo them and haul away.  The brick will also be available when the remnants are demo'd.

Last Friday, I talked with Bill D'Avignon about saving the woodwork, doors, etc. in the green house on Pennsylvania Ave.  He responded in a similar manner.  That, when the house is contracted for demolition, an arrangement could possibly be made for a group of volunteers to come in and remove/salvage the materials before the house is torn down.  I would have to assume that this would only be OK if the demo contractor didn't want this stuff first?

To avoid disturbing any asbestos, the salvaging would have to stay on the surface of things: moldings, trim, doors, wood floors, etc.  In places like kitchens and bathrooms, you would also have to be careful of the floors in addition to walls and ceilings, because some vinyl floor tiles were made with asbestos.  Also, one would have to be careful not to disturb the plaster too much while removing the trim.  I guess this is why most demo contractors don't think it's cost effective; it requires too much care?

Steve would know much better than I, but, based on the lecture about deconstruction last spring at the Ohio One Building, deconstruction is more than just saving woodwork and hardware.  Deconstruction is also about saving the old building materials like joists, sheathing, bricks, shingles (for recycling) etc.  Is there a market for that kind of material? (I know bricks could be desirable)

Finally, here is a question for anyone who knows.  In many cases in Youngstown, when a house is demolished, it is just knocked down and compacted into the basement cavity, and covered over with dirt.  So, after this rubble (including asbestos pipe wrap, etc.) has been buried for a number of years, is it safe to dig up?  Has the asbestos been stabilized by mixing with earth?  Or, are most of these vacant lots now considered brown fields, which could hinder development in the future?

Wow, this post kinda jumped all over the place...

Westsider, thank you for confirming what I know, you also have established that we can produce the same results with salvaging without going thru the term "deconstruction".  Yes, as long as we stay away from friable asbestos we bypass the cost and health problems.  So we have in place the process to recycle now which is our goal.  In regards to 1000 Bryson, and 139 Park, we invite anyone interested in salvaging the material that has no possibility of having asbestos.  Trying to deconstruct the walls and ceilings is not cost effective anyway, we can just demo them.

The answer to your last question is that all demolition over a decade ago has gone away from the practice of burying the debris in the basement.  Only clean fill is allowed to be buried.

Okay Steve, let's try your approach.

First step, we get the demolition permit (stating deconstruction) for 139 Park, so now we need an asbestos test, how much?  If asbestos found, which is a big unknown, can we revert back to basic demolition if abatement is unaffordable?

Second step, if no asbestos found, machinery, labor, workman's comp, dumping fees, site clearing, what should we budget and who will finance?  Note, we should be able to convince an investor, that we have a buyer for all the salvaged material and their financing will be paid back once structure is deconstructed, correct?

Third step, buyers and end users of material, who and how much do we get?

Fourth step, nonprofit group willing to accept donated material and entity needing a tax exemption?


If you can put all this together, I'm in.  Also, can I see a copy of the project costs of the two deconstruction projects you have done?

Shrimp,
    I think this is one best left to the Professionals, Don't ya think?? with the history of our court system I don't think I want to wast any more tax dollars on any boondoggle that your involved in.. If I were you, I would stick to digging holes in the ground,, the shovel fit's so well in your hands..

Another "flea" that needs to be flicked off.

Quote from: Steve Novotny on December 10, 2009, 05:31:34 PM
The demolition contractors can salvage because they have a demolition permit.
To do deconstruction, you need a demolition permit.

It's the same permit.

Hardly!

The deconstruction pilot projects done over the summer (2 houses) diverted about 165 tons of building materials from the landfill. At 50% of local retail, this material was valued at over $10,000. Most mature markets for salvaged building materials support prices at 75%-90% of retail, with some items valued above retail. (which would place the value of the deconstructed materials at nearly $20,000)

You know those large unfinished support beams in the basements of older homes? There are parts of the country where these sell at 2 and 3 times the new retail value of FINISHED dimensional lumber. Why? Because rough sawed wood at these dimensions are rarely made anymore. Many builders incorporate them into house designs as specialty items for aesthetic purposes. In many cases these beams are of old growth timber, and are of a quality and species that you literally cannot buy anymore. Run them through a planer and you have some expensive boards on your hands.

All those "scrap" 2x4s in the walls and ceilings can, at the very least, be thrown into a grinder and sold wholesale as mulch or bio fuel for $1,000 to $2,000 pretty easily.

Furthermore, the pilot projects required 40% more labor than traditional demolition, ie NEW JOBS.

With the groundwork laid out in market development and the adequate industry infrastructure in place, those with a little business savvy will be able to turn a profit from deconstruction.

Here's a tip:

NONPROFITS

Let's say a homeowner needs to demolish the house at a cost of about $3,000. To deconstruct the house, it might cost about $5,500. So why deconstruct? The materials can be donated for a tax deduction to a qualified nonprofit, like Habitat for Humanity. By law, the declared value of the donation must be the value of the materials NEW. So lets say that the value new of the material salvaged totals $20,000. Depending on your tax bracket, the resulting deduction will more than offset the costs, making deconstruction CHEAPER than the $3,000 demolition.  If you find yourself in a tax bracket of 27.5% or higher, you will realize a net PROFIT from deconstruction.

Steve,  Nevel's Temple met last wenesday and the congregation is ready to begin demolition/salvage. 

Do you have an entity that needs a write off?  Do you have sources who need recycled material?   

Nevel's Temple on Elm Street just secured a demolition permit for their structure on Park across from their parking lot.  We have just inspected the structure and will be salvaging the following material:

1.  8" baseboard trim                          2.  Antique door plates
3.  newer thermo pane windows           4.  clean 2x4's
4.  Antique radiators w/ designs           5.  steel, cast piping
6.  banisters                                     6. alluminum siding

*** If anyone is interested in material, post your request.

Oh, the sandstone foundation will be available after the demolition of the structure.

Ron,

Don't forget to check out the hard wood flooring - oak flooring is very
expensive to buy from a lumber store... someone might be interested in buying
the used flooring, and running it through a small planer to render it ready to
use as replacement flooring for a re-hab project, or for installation in a home
that does not have hardwood floors.  If the wood is still in salvageable condition,
there must be several thousand square feet of it inside this building.

As long as the sub-floor underneath is still in good condition, the flooring can
be safely removed without compromising the structural integrity of the place.

Are any of the old pocket doors still inside the place?  Salvage these , if
any are still present - along with the tracks, rollers and moldings around
them.

These items are definitely sought after by home restorers (like myself) as
well as the yuppie-types who are having new homes built with an antique
motif to them.

They also sell pretty easily in the antiques market....


Also, the electrical heavy-up on this property was upgraded not too many
years ago, so you might want to locate all of the panels, etc and see if they
are worth saving.

When I was looking at buying the property a few years ago, I noticed that
the units had forced air, gas heat - are the furnaces worth salvaging?  A lot
of the older, forced-air units can be upgraded with newer heat-exchangers,
which raises their efficiency to a level that is acceptable by current standards.

Just a few ideas...


Allan
:)

Allan, I thank you for the advise and it is well noted.  We are however just starting on the single family dwelling and not the fourplex.  Until we find or create a market for salvaged material, recycling will continue to be weak in the local market.  I tried to help the city with contacts, but Novotny, the Deconstruction Czar seems to be all talk and no action as can be seen by all his relative post.  He finds this site a poor taste to discuss public business. 

I did however stimulate the Amish woodworkers and secured a list of all their companies in Holmes county who maybe a market for salvaged wood.  Also, I stumbled on Ryan Miller the head of all the Ohio Restore's, he is interested in the possibility.  Again, I advised Novotny and he seems to have vanished with our tax dollars.