Denver Post
9/6/08
Republican Recycling
by David Harsanyi on September 6, 2008
This morning, Republicans tell me that a worker at Invesco Field in Denver saved thousands of unused flags from the Democratic National Convention that were headed for the garbage. Guerrilla campaigning. They will use these flags at their own event today in Colorado Springs with John McCain and Sarah Palin.
Before McCain speaks today, veterans will haul these garbage bags filled with flags out onto the stage — with dramatic effect, no doubt — and tell the story.
"What you see in the picture I sent you is less than half of total flags," a Republican official emailed. "We estimate the total number to be around 12,000 small flags and one full size 3×5 flag."
I'm not sure what the DNC was supposed to do with unused hand-flags, frankly. But the Republicans are obviously questioning someone's patriotism here.
I don't know how to post photos here but have a copy of the picture referenced in the above.
Link to the article and photo.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/
May seem dumb... But it was a mistake to put them in a trash bag. That is not something you do to the American flag.
My biggest question: Why did those in attendance not bring them home, but rather throw them on the ground..
I was wondering that myself. They spend big bucks on Obama souvenirs and crazy hats and they even drag home the state signs, but toss the American flags into the trash ... that doesn't say very much about them as individuals, but when you consider the fact that they see nothing wrong with burning the American flag at protest rallies I guess its par for the course.
Look at how folks had to shame Obama into wearing a Flag lapel pin.
I just wonder what Democrats like Charlie Rangel, a decorated Vet would have to say about it. I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate seeing the flag he fought for tossed into garbage bags.
I don't care where the flags were made ... they still are the Stars And Stripes and that's all that matters to me.
What would be the proper way to dispose of so many flags?
I know that if you are disposing of one it is proper to have a ceremony, normally where the flag is cut into different sections, which are burned one at a time. Also, someone would normally talk about what each part of the flag represents as it is being burned. Would you do this with one, and just burn the rest whole?
They could have donated these flags to a veterans group to put out on graves, or to be used in parades/other events. Or they could have given them to a group like the Boy Scouts who would have taken the time to dispose of them correctly.
Forget Boy Scouts Elmo, Democrats hate the Boy Scouts of America as much as they hate Republicans because the BSA will not lower its standards to allow Gay Scout Masters etc.
These are BRAND NEW flags that could very well have been turned over to the various veterans groups as you suggested.
Why would you want BRAND NEW flags destroyed? Thousands of dollars were spent on those flags from money that AMERICANS donated to the Party for this years campaign.
SHAME ON THE DNC and SHAME ON ANY DEMOCRAT WHO WOULD JUST SIT BACK AND SAY NOTHING!
FOLLOWUP:
Damon Jones, spokesman for the Democratic National Convention Committee, released a statement claiming that McCain supporters swiped leftover bundles of flags from the stadium "to play out a cheap political stunt" calling into question Democrat patriotism.
Democratic organizers have claimed that the flags were not meant to be thrown in the trash, but according to a Fox News report, McCain supporters claim the vendor found the bagged flags in and around garbage bins following the Democratic National Convention.
A group of Boy Scouts brought 84 garbage bags full of the discarded flags to the site of a Republican rally in Colorado Springs today, where veterans distributed them throughout the assembled crowd. McCain supporters waved the recycled flags and chanted "U.S.A." as they welcomed John McCain and his running mate, Sarah Palin.
Interesting what you said, about Democrats hating the BSA, especially when you look at who delivered the flags to the McCain/Palin event... Makes you think about how the Democrats think about everything, they're only strong on being weak, on failing.... Just a thought.
Sounds to me like the Democrats are just trying to cover up for their mistake.
Sorry Democrats I just do not believe your side of this story. Its a disgrace. :o
My Father was a Sergent First Class in WWII in Europe and Korea in an Armoured Division which explains my anger at this story.
As to the BSA ... in a number of cities including Philidelphia the Boy Scouts were ordered off public property by Democratic Officials, and in Congress, the Democrats attacked the Boy Scouts on the floor of the House of Representatives, but then they also attacked the Salvation Army because it wouldn't take their liberal stand on subjucts near and dear to the hearts and souls of liberals.
Why should I believe a word they say.?
SECOND FOLLOWUP WITH QUESTIONS:
McCain camp uses 'discarded' Obama flags
From CNN Correspondent Mary Snow
COLORADO SPRINGS, CO (CNN)–Republicans kicked off a McCain/Palin rally in Colorado Springs with veterans handing out American flags they say were discarded after the Democratic National Convention in Denver.
Tom Kise –a spokesman for the McCain campaign in Colorado said a worker at Invesco field who wants to remain anonymous dropped off the flags to the McCain campaign this past week. He says there were 84 bags that amounted to roughly 12 thousand flags.
As thousands in the crowd waved flags, Senator McCain noticed them – saying "those flags look great" — but did not make direct mention of the flap.
Damon Jones, a spokesman for the Democratic Convention tells CNN "the story is false."
He says the flags were bundled together, placed in bags and intended to be distributed at Invesco. Jones says they "were removed without authorization".
Updated with DNC response
In response to the accusations, DNC spokeswoman Karren Finney released the following statement:
"American flags were proudly waved by the 75,000 people who joined Barack Obama at the Democratic Convention. John McCain should applaud that, but instead his supporters wrongfully took leftover bundles of our flags from the stadium to play a cheap political stunt calling into question our patriotism. On the same day he agrees to join Barack Obama at Ground Zero on September 11, John McCain attacks the patriotism of Obama supporters who so proudly waved the American flag at our historic event in Denver just days ago."
QUESTION:
HOW COULD SOMEONE WALK OUT OF INVESCO WITH 84 TRASH BAGS FULL OF FLAGS WITHOUT BEING STOPPED BY SECURITY PEOPLE?
HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD IT TAKE TO TAKE 12,000 FLAGS OUT OF THE BUILDING, LOAD THEM IN A TRUCK AND TAKE OFF WITH THEM.
SEVERAL TRIPS IN AND OUT OF THE STADIUM WOULD HAVE BEEN NEEDED YET NO ONE SAW THEM? NO ONE ASK THEM WHAT THEY WERE UP TO, OR TRIED TO STOP THEM?
ANYONE WITH A LICK OF COMMON SENSE WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT THE DEMOCRATIC RESPONSE IS SO MUCH HOG WASH.
Wow is everyone more then willing to just say DNC are not Patriots. It was a screw up it has nothing to do with how much any DNC member feels about this country. I would never believe that ANY member of the RNC or the DNC would ever throw out flags like that. It was an oversite. Someone was supposed to pick them up and forgot.
I don't think that they all got together and said, Hey! I've got a great idea! Lets through these American flags in the trash! I do however think that someone knew and determined that it was acceptable. Even if it was oversite, how can you overlook what is going to happen to twelve thousand flags?
With all due respect Mary the facts are simple:
1. The flags were in trash bags.
2. When the DNC received them, they were in boxes.
3. The boxes are nowhere to be seen in the photo.
4. The people who removed them from the stadium were not challenged.
5. The bags were near dumpsters. If the officials were saving them (a) they would have put them back in the boxes they came in, not trash bags, (b) they would have put them in a more secure place so that no one could walk off with them.
Certainly most Democrats are just as patriotic as Republicans, and lets assume that this was an oversight on the part of the folks assigned the task of taking care of them, that does not excuse their actions. You don't put 12,000 flags in trash bags and set them where they can be considered as trash, nor do you take all the flags out of their shipping boxes and toss the boxes away. You keep the flags in the boxes they came in and pass them out as needed from there.
"Democratic organizers have claimed that the flags were not meant to be thrown in the trash, but according to a Fox News report, McCain supporters claim the vendor found the bagged flags in and around garbage bins following the Democratic National Convention."
As I pointed out earlier, where were the security people at Invesco Field? Several people would have been needed to haul 84 trash bags full of flags out of the stadium and load them in the truck, and it would have taken some time to perform the task. A security guard worth his salt would have stopped them and made a call to the DNC to find out if these people were authorized to take the flags, have gotten their names, and made entries in their security logs.
The simple fact that the flags left the building unchallanged speaks for itself.
Finally, since they were in trash bags in the area of the dumsters, the trash haulers could just as easily have assumed they were to be thrown away and threw them in their trucks. Most likely the dumsters were themselves full and its not unusual to place trash bags around them when there's no more room in the dumpsters.
The DNC had a lot of materials at Invesco Field that they wanted back, and that material was placed in a safe place, and that is where the flags should also have gone.
I have to agree with towntalk, We will probably never know why those flags were discarded nor by whom, but there is no doubt that they were. And it is still a disgrace.
I looked at the picture and see that each flag was rolled up neatly. If they were being discarded why would someone take the time to do that?
That's simple to answer. The DNC purchased more flags than they needed. 12,000 too many.
You don't unfurl all the flags at once, but take a bundle you are going to pass out and unfurl those.
Why were they not kept in their shipping boxes until they were needed?
At the places I worked at, they didn't take more products out of their cartons than they were going to put on display for sale. And the rest were placed in a secure place.
Even if those flags were handouts at the convention reasonable people would have (or should have) treated them the same way that a store would treat its merchandise.
Does a restraunt take all its food out of the shipping cartons before they need them? Certainly no. They put it in a safe place and open up only what they are going to use.
If they had kept the extras in the boxes they came in, and put them in a safe place, there would be no issue, but they didn't.
Quote from: ForumManager on September 09, 2008, 04:21:14 PM
I looked at the picture and see that each flag was rolled up neatly. If they were being discarded why would someone take the time to do that?
Why did the Democratic Delegates THROW Them on the ground!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/2806498530_92c4f14cf2_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/2805648705_5dab7b87af.jpg?v=0)
Rolled Up Real Neat Ehhh!?
A flag is an object which represents an idea, country, group, etc. If you don't care about that idea, country, or group, and it's values, then you don't care if you drop it's flag on the ground as your leaving. Those photos are disgusting. I've turned around and gone back on the freeway before to pick up the flag of the United States, whether it's in good shape, or torn tattered and ground into the mud. I do this because I believe in what it represents. A party that can leave our flag laying on the ground (by the thousands) without a second thought is not a party that should be running our country.
And the fact that they are in bags with all other kinds of garbage just makes me furious...
This is the picture I was referring to
The one shown in the first post in this thread.
It seem the desecration of the flag is not limited to one party.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
scroll down for the references to the photos
There is a big difference between photo 1 which was taken after the DNC convention and the other two.
In the case of signing a small flag its interesting to note that this is a tradition that goes way back in American history, and in fact at the Smithsonian there is a collection of American flags that were signed by American Presidents.
At a convention of the Armoured Division my Father was in there was on display an American Flag that had the names of all the men in that division who were killed in action who died for that flag. It was their division flag that stood in their headquarters and is now at Fort Knox.
The issue here is tossing flags on the ground and later tossing them into trash bags along with other trash as shown in YoungstownNewsandViews post and having a small flag signed by the President of the United States or a Presidential candidate.
I'm sure that the soldiers whose name was placed on the flag would not have been upset.
Would you consider it desecration for a soldier going into battle wearing an American flag on his sleve? I doubt it, you are too good a person to even consider going there.
At the Olympics, players wear an American flag patch as do many Police officers, and some would say that is wrong.
I'm sure that the persons who had their flags signed will treasure them and protect them, and not throw them into the nearest trash can.
Flag etiquette should be followed across the board.
The Republican convention cleanup videos appear to have flags on the floor as well but they are hard to make out amongst all the trash so I didn't post them.
Quote from: ForumManager on September 10, 2008, 09:41:07 AM
Flag etiquette should be followed across the board.
The Republican convention cleanup videos appear to have flags on the floor as well but they are hard to make out amongst all the trash so I didn't post them.
There may have been a few flags at the GOP Convention, but not 12,000! Tell your friends on the left to read up on flag etiquette.
Sorry, but you only showed few trash bags... and how does anyone know that those flags were not left on CHAIRS and then put into trash bags by the cleanup crew?
The others in the first photo were rolled up neatly and since they were not directly touching the floor that method of storage might be acceptable. The EXTRAS were placed against the WALL in an UPRIGHT position as thought someone intended to keep them off of the floor. That area does not appear to be a trash receptacle area. The bags may have also been closed until someone decided to open them up for photos.
I often use trash bags to transport and PROTECT things.
Can you ever get ANYTHING back into its original box these days?
QuoteTell your friends on the left to read up on flag etiquette.
I posted a link to page about flag etiquette
here is another:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm
which is the FLAG CODE
Quote§3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag
Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention to, decorate, mark, or distinguish the article or substance on which so placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court. The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.
It should be noted that the Supreme Court has ruled that desacration of the American Flag is "freedom of Speech" so if the law you cited were to go to the high court, it would be struck down as a violation of the First Amendment.
In looking back at past campaigns going back as far at they go, campaigns have used the flag in their ads and posters. Abraham Lincoln for example had a flag with his name and his Vice President's name on it.
2004 convention photo
http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/11/01/national/01campaign_slide8.184.jpg
Apparently this was before it was politically incorrect to trash the flag?
The law i cited is the same law that you are up in arms about.
Read the entire thing.
You can't have it both ways
QuoteIt should be noted that the Supreme Court has ruled that desacration of the American Flag is "freedom of Speech" so if the law you cited were to go to the high court, it would be struck down as a violation of the First Amendment.
I would be just as up in arms, but moreso since W has always made a big deal about patriotism. And who was it that slammed Obama for not wearing a flag pin?
By the way, if you go to American Memories at the Library of Congress web site you can find numerous cases where the Government used the American Flag for advertizing purposes for the WPA etc.
Under the law you cited, the government itself would be in violation of that law.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that any political party has a lock on patriotism, for they certainly don't.
And Ytownnewsandviews... frankly it irritates me that you make cheap shots about "my friends on the left." I own this forum and have told you that you are welcome to post to the right and to advertise your radio pods."
It also bothers me that the actions of a bunch of partiers many who have been drinking. on both sides of the political fence come under this scrutiny.
Here's a thought...
Outlaw all campaigning
EVERYWHERE
Do not allow ANY campaign contributions. This will remove much special interest innuendo.
In this day and age of "mass media" the following could be done:
All candidates are given lists of issues and are given air time to say what they will do about the issues. Another candidate's name or their position will be completely off limits under any circumstances. No commercials will be allowed. All are given the SAME issues and the same amount of time to speak. These opinions would then be published in all mass media IE a special TV network with a schedule available, a special radio network with a schedule available, websites, newspaper public notices. As new questions come up they are given more opportunities to address them.
Public debates could be held WEEKLY and televised on all networks.
The congressman, senators and presidential incumbents, would be REQUIRED to STAY in Washington and governors and other public servants in their home locales and the debates could be done via satellite so no one is ignoring their present duties.
No money is spent on WASTEFUL raucous parties and there will be an even playing field for everyone.
The parties' candidates would be chosen by public voting, and the winners of each primary would continue to debate WEEKLY.
or maybe let's eliminate that party voting thing altogether too.
Vote on everyone... highest votes wins, second place vice president.
Our current modus operandi was established in the horse and buggy days.
How's that for left? ... or maybe it is right .. . being moral and for the majority.
Well my friend, perhaps I am rudely characterizing you as one on the left, and I base that very claim from your posts on here.
About the financing.. Well Obama could have $84 million in public financing, but o wait, he decided to go against his pledge so he could raise millions more. And o btw, his financial lead is very slim.
Forum Manager:
You just made a very good point and a tip of the hat to you.
This campaign has been running way too long ... way too long indeed ... and to be perfectly honest about it ... I'm burned out.
Every one of the candidates are spouting the same sound bites that they spouted during the very first debate, now they are resorting to mud slinging.
In past Presidential campaigns I made a point of including the polls, but not this time around, they are all worthless so far as the voters are concerned. They give the media something to flap their gums about but they do not tell us exactly what the candidates will commit themselves to.
As a voter, I want the bottom line specifics from their mouths, not the media, and certainly not their flunkies. "Change" simply will not cut it.
Its reached the point where I have no intentions watching the next three debates not will I pay attention to any of the polls that will follow them. The only poll that will have any real meaning will be the poll take three days before November 4th.
I don't feel it is rude to characterize someone as being left. I feel that many of us don't fit into left or right. The parties were established long ago. Most people have more access to information these days and develop their own opinion on individual issues. There are even disagreements within the parties themselves. I feel the political parties are throwbacks to an earlier age.
That is precisely why the Independents are a real factor that both parties are courting. This group is fed up to the gills with both parties and their media pals.
We can nitpick at this subject forever. Yes there were flags dropped on the floor at many different rallies by both parties. But only one appears to have deliberately discarded 12,000 American flags and made a feeble attempt (Translate lie) to explain what happened.
The Democratic convention of 2008 will be remembered for 12,000 flags.
The other day in my office in Boardman, I recycled an old envelope with one of those u.s. flag stamps. Was I unpatriotic for doing so?
Sometimes we wear little american flag pins at work on our lapels, but the pins get bent after a while so we throw them away. Still unpatriotic even though we wear them with pride?
Face it people, the American flag has extended its use into many commercial categories and is in many cases only a commodity like paper clips, toothpicks, and other perishables like toilet paper.
I'm not saying whether that is good or bad, but when you have people making money off paper flags, plastic flags, american flag ties (which are usually ugly, not just insulting) and american flag underwear, the whole "every flag is sacred" arguement becomes much less convincing.
This moment will not define the democratic convention because it is a fringe news story which is carried on by fringe people who already have their minds made up about certain issues.
So there is a big difference in my mind in a beautiful flag flying at the capitol, or a cloth flag draped on a coffin, compared to those thousands of paper flags you show in those bags.
and so those paper flags got put in the dumpster. big deal.
Peggy F.
What is your source for the statement that the flags were "PAPER"?
Look again at the pictures and this time with your glasses on.
I watched both conventions via C-SPAN and the flags that the delegates were waving WERE definately cloth.