In todays Vindicator is a report of University Students taking a look at downtown Youngstown with redesign in mind.
http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regional/301785822071866.php
My question is, (1) does this mean that we will see the downtown area torn up again, (2) just how many cafe's and restaurants can the downtown area reasonably economically support, (3) and most importantly, where would the money come from?
How many restaurants can the downtown area economically support? 10 - 50 - 100? How many taverns 20 - 40 - 60? How many nightclubs 60 - 80 - 100?
The affordable housing is a good idea.
One idea would be to do yet another study of the old Kress building to see if it could be salvaged and turned into apartments. Another would be for the city to meet with the owner of the old Paramount and agree to give him all the money he needs to restore the building even if they have to take it from Police and Fire needs. We can also take money from all the other city funds to fund whatever plan these outsiders come up with.
The real question that needs to be asked is why out of state students are being brought in when we already have local university students that are in a far better position to do the job.
Further, we already have a 2010 plan ... how much of it has been completed? So are we suppose to toss it out and start again with a whole new plan? This is what is wrong with the local officials ... they don't come up with a single plan and stick to that plan through compleation.
My heavens, since Black Monday there have been so many plans and studies made about Youngstown that they could fill a room at the Main Branch of the Public Library, and not one of those studies and plans have ever been implemented to compleation. With all of the thousands of dollars spent on those studies, we could have rebuilt downtown Youngstown from bottom up.
No offense, but I come on here and see all these people wanting to beautify the city and salvage old houses and what not, but if you want Youngstown to be beautiful you need to start with the school systems. I would be afraid to send my kids to the schools. I am afraid to travel down some streets and I would definately be more afraid to WALK down some of the streets. Make Youngstown a place where people WANT to live. Make people say "I want a house in the Youngstown City school district". It all starts with education on oppurtunity.
You're not alone. I've read study after study after everlasting study about turning Youngstown around as I've said since Black Monday, and NONE of which was actually ever implemented ... studies that cost taxpayers thousands of dollars each. Youngstown in point of fact is one of the most studied cities in Ohio. I seriously doubt that the powers that be have ever read a single one of them, and I'm aware of at least 50.
WE KNOW THE PROBLEMS FACING YOUNGSTOWN, AND BEFORE ANOTHER STUDY IS ASSEMBLED, THE TIME IS LONG PAST FOR THE MAYOR AND POLICE CHIEF TO ADDRESS THOSE IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS, AND FORCE THE POLICE TO DO THEIR JOBS OR ELSE.
AGAIN, THE TIME HAS COME FOR THE MAYOR TO PUT THOSE RESPONSABLE FOR SLUM CLEARANCE ON NOTICE THAT THEY HAVE 30 DAYS TO PROVE THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOB OR THEY'RE FIRED!
AS TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION, THE WHOLE LOT AREN'T WORTH TWO CENTS AND NEED TO BE BOOTED OUT ... NO EXCEPTION, BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE VOTERS OF YOUNGSTOWN ARE TOO IGNORENT TO BE EXPECTED TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
A great deal of the blame has to be placed at the feet of the local news media for not putting the facts before the people and not only asking the tough questions of the candidates, but crucifying them if they don't live up to their campaign promises.
Personally I don't believe a word any candidate says ... NOT A SINGLE WORD ... IT'S THEIR DEEDS IN OFFICE THAT WHAT I MEASURE THEM BY.
I for one am very happy and honored that these students were able to come to Youngstown and see our beautiful city. I got to meet these students and they are very optimistic and eager to help out.
My question is....why wont they listen to our own students about the city? YSU students (most of them) are from the area, they know the area.... I know a lot of them have ideas about our downtown also, like myself they are shut down.
A number of years ago, a group of college students were brought in for the very same reason and a bundle of money was spent on the project with the central focus of attention being Market Court Alley located between Federal Street and Boardman St, from Hazel to S. Chestnut Street., certainly not a huge area in the total picture.
A 3d model is all we have to show for our money sitting around collecting dust.
I have absolutely nothing against college students, and certainly their input is needed, but my heavens, we have a perfectly good 2010 plan that is getting national praise, so why change it now just to give these folks a project for credit?
Now if they were given a single building to work on like the Kress Building, that would be a horse of a different color, but turning the centerpiece of the 2010 Plan over to them, that I have a problem with.
Lets address though the central issue I have with this whole exercise.
Just how many restaurants, night clubs, etc can the downtown area economically support?
Realistically speaking when do we reach the saturation point.
As I said, putting apartment buildings downtown I support whole heartedly, and once they are a reality, the restaurants and night clubs that are already there will expand on their own, but until there is a real customer base for them, they won't. That is simple 101 economics.
A second economics 101 fact is that no business district can depend on purely a college student economic base because this base isn't exactly rolling in cash. If that were the case, and college students were rolling in money, Kent would have a vibrant flourishing business district since Kent State has more students than YSU.
We spent thousands and thousands of dollars putting the 2010 plan together, had dozens of meetings where the public had their input including YSU students so why toss all that work away now?
This city has major problems with public safety that must be addressed, and before we can ever hope to convince people to come downtown in droves, that problem must be addressed, and that takes money. If money is diverted to have a group of students from outside the area come in to come up with a plan that will never be implemented, we will have not solved our city's core problem.
The addition of Police substations is a great idea, but are those stations manned on a 24/7 basis? That takes money to have police officers based at these substations.
Now if those student city planners were given an area outside the core 2010 area to work on, I would have no objections. What about the Market Street area, or the South Avenue area, or for that matter the Mahoning Avenue or Fifth Avenue area? These areas are all corridors to the downtown area, and the first things that outside visitors see when they come into the city.
I think comparing the work of the Michigan students to the 2010 plan is like comparing apples to oranges.
The 2010 plan was a land use study. Hardly anything else.
Sure, there were some general items out there like "rebuild the north side pool" and "demolish the salvation army building", but as the whole, concerning the planning of downtown, nothing was planned out to the level that the Michigan students are attempting.
Next point, the story in the paper refers to a class of city planning student from U. of Michigan coming here for a design studio. Their main costs for this project are probably derived from the tutition they pay to take this class. Maybe in the two days they were here, perhaps some entity paid for night in the dorm rooms, dinner or lunch here or there, but I bet for the most part this was a project done on the cheap, considering its student labor.
Next point, they did engage YSU student while they were here. They spent time with business leaders, time with students, time with young professionals, time with (gasp) artists, time with city leaders, time with local institutions like the Symphony, and time with landowners. It's called listening to your stakeholders.
Next point, the students who did this are from a city planning program, en route to be professionals in this field. While YSU students may produce good ideas, comparatively, they are not qualified to do this type of plan. There are no archiecture or city planning programs in town.
Next point, when this project is completed, the suggestions they provide may or may not be taken. They are like an idea farm, maybe some will take root, maybe some will be ignored. It's called a process.
Next point, we need people sometimes to come from the outside with ideas. Since very few people seem to relocate into this area, maybe visitors can provide us with a fresh perspective, or alternate ways to look at ourselves. I for one enjoy meeting people who visit from the outside. They say, "you know. you have a great town here. It's too bad most of the locals don't see it that way." But then again, being a tourist and being a resident are two different things. BUT, if the residents work with input from the stakeholders in the city, you'll probably get better ideas than if they met no one.
I can continue with more points, but Youngstown needs a holistic, system-based approach to many of its problems.
True, you do need to stop crime, true you need better schools, but you also need to have places that people feel are safe and worth spending their time in. The goal here is to get more people living downtown, and working in city, which will pay more money to improve things like the schools and the police, assuming money is the answer.
Crime will decline when people have jobs, and good people are moving into neighborhoods. You may disagree that a planning studio may lead to better schools, but I think it's a way to get ideas on the cheap from students who have seen the world, and may make our little slice of the world a better place.
Janko,
You've said everything I was thinking, but probably in a much more coherent manner, thanks.
Janko, do you know those things as an absolute first hand fact that can be documented, or are they your personal opinion?
People just do not show up on our doorstep one night and say we want to do a study. They do not meet with city officials and businessmen unannounced and unplanned for, nor does any university pick up the tab for every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along.
Nor would the University of Michigan allow it's students to go off on a lark.
Clearly it was planned, and funded.
I don't know what your beef is with the 2010 Plan, or for that matter what your expertise is to pass judgement on it, but the fact remains that it has been given high points by real national experts, and Youngstown has been given a very high score again nationally to the extent that other cities are coming here to learn more about it so that they could apply it in their cities.
Here is one taxpayer that is fed up with this never ending planning that wastes money and gets no results. This city and its people deserve more.
As to YSU "not having the expertise", might I point out to you the Smokey Hollow project, or are you putting that down also?
I for one do not give YSU or it's students short shrift. My deepest regret is that there are not more jobs available locally to keep them here once they've graduated. They deserve much more than they're getting ... not from YSU, but the business community. It's a crime that they get a top notch education here, but have to move to other states to get work.
I have been following the planning for Youngstown's future, and make a point of reading all the studies that have been commissioned since 1980, and I'm here to tell you that none of them has been fully implemented, and if they had, we wouldn't be in the position we're in now.
Again, we seem to keep forgetting that there are two private developers who are turning two downtown buildings into condos, and YSU has spent millions building housing in the Smokey Hollow area, and I'm in favor of those efforts.
And where in the immediate downtown area can a private developer build a new high rise. Aside from two or three buildings the rest of the West End is either in use now or soon to be developed.
I don't know the current status of the Stambaugh Building, but if that building were free and clear for development, it could be looked on for housing, BUT, until this city gets it's crime problem under control what person in their right mind would want to move into the city especially when they would have to travel to the suburbs to do their shopping.
The downtown may very well be safe, but in order to get to where all the stores are, they would have to drive through areas that are nothing short of war zones.
Hopefully, if Liberty Township gets a WalMart, other stores will move into the Belmont Avenue area, and downtown residents wouldn't have to drive through the South Side war zone, but that's in the future, and we have to deal with the cards that are delt here and now.
Westsider just how long must we wait before we come to a final conclusion? Just how many more studies are required before you're satisfied? Just how much longer must we wait before the end has been reached?
Let me start off by saying I'm very tired. But, I am somewhat distressed by your reaction to these students' work, so I feel compelled to reply now.
Quote from: Towntalk on July 28, 2007, 10:55:45 PM
People just do not show up on our doorstep one night and say we want to do a study. They do not meet with city officials and businessmen unannounced and unplanned for, nor does any university pick up the tab for every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along.
Nor would the University of Michigan allow it's students to go off on a lark.
Clearly it was planned, and funded.
I went to school at KSU and studied architecture. (Kent has an urban design program for it's M.Arch students that is similar to Michigan's) We would often travel to other cities to work on projects there--without help from the school or the target city. The students from Michigan are studying urban design, and Youngstown (along with Chicago and Ann Arbor) is one of their target cities. In my case, at the beginning of a project, our professors informed us that our project would be located in a certain location. I don't know if every school works the same; perhaps the Michigan students chose Youngstown because of its innovative 2010 plan.
Frankly, I wish the projects we were working on had been more reality-based--like what the Michigan students are working on. We were never given the opportunity to present our ideas to the cities our projects were located in. (For example, in my 5th year studio, a group of approximately 15 students generated 5 separate urban design ideas for Cleveland's Gateway district.)
QuoteI don't know what your beef is with the 2010 Plan, or for that matter what your expertise is to pass judgement on it, but the fact remains that it has been given high points by real national experts, and Youngstown has been given a very high score again nationally to the extent that other cities are coming here to learn more about it so that they could apply it in their cities.
Here is one taxpayer that is fed up with this never ending planning that wastes money and gets no results. This city and its people deserve more.
The work these students are doing is not intended to take the place of the 2010 plan. I don't believe Janko has any problem with the 2010 plan. He is just stating what it is. The 2010 plan is general, and these students are coming up with very specific ideas, that the city has the option of listening to.
QuoteAs to YSU "not having the expertise", might I point out to you the Smokey Hollow project, or are you putting that down also?
I for one do not give YSU or it's students short shrift. My deepest regret is that there are not more jobs available locally to keep them here once they've graduated. They deserve much more than they're getting ... not from YSU, but the business community. It's a crime that they get a top notch education here, but have to move to other states to get work.
I checked, and YSU doesn't have an urban design program. KSU is the closest school that has a program equivalent to Michigan's. And, KSU has already helped work on the 2010 plan. I believe they worked on the Oak Hill neighborhood. It's not about overlooking YSU students in favor of outsiders; it's simply that YSU doesn't have an equivalent academic program.
QuoteI have been following the planning for Youngstown's future, and make a point of reading all the studies that have been commissioned since 1980, and I'm here to tell you that none of them has been fully implemented, and if they had, we wouldn't be in the position we're in now.
Again, this plan wasn't commissioned. As part of their education, these students are generating ideas for downtown.
Quote...BUT, until this city gets it's crime problem under control what person in their right mind would want to move into the city especially when they would have to travel to the suburbs to do their shopping.
The downtown may very well be safe, but in order to get to where all the stores are, they would have to drive through areas that are nothing short of war zones.
This is getting a little off topic, but if the Utopian ideas these students are surely generating would be carried out exactly as they envision, there would be no need to leave downtown. I don't really know what these students will come up with, but I suspect they have a more European type of city in mind.
You can have as many plans as you want, but like I said before, you won't get anywhere unless you fix the school system first. If you want business in Youngstown that can be economically supported by the people in Youngstown then the people in Youngstown need to be well educated so that they can have to types of jobs that can build and support a srong economy.
About the city schools ... You're absolutely right, they are an utter failure, and until that is corrected, what young family would want to come into the city to live, but every time this fact is pointed out, people post messages that say that we don't know what we're talking about in spite of the fact that we're not the only ones that are saying it ... even the Chamber of Commerce says that mighty changes are needed.
I can understand ... school teachers in the city system get bent out of shape when it's pointed out to them that they are doing a miserable job, and Board members get angry when it's pointed out to them that they are a total failure ... but that doesn't change the bottom line fact that the system is just not working, and building new schools isn't going to solve the problem.
We can find all sorts of excuses ... blame the students ... blame the families ... blame the system ... not enough money, but that isn't getting us anywhere. The time for playing the blame game is long past ... we all know down deep what the problem is ... we all have our part to play because we as voters allow it to happen when we don't treat the Board of Education races as seriously as we do the Mayors race at election time, and when we collectively don't hold the Board members feet to the fire, but sit back and tolerate their pathetic excuses.
Personally though, I doubt seriously if anyone here really cares, and base that on the fact that this has been a long time in coming, it's not a new issue, and nothing has changed, it's only gotten worse.
While we're at it, we need a little reality check. Of the total population of Youngstown:
1. How many people are senior citizens on fixed income?
2. How many are on welfare?
3. How many people rent rather than own their own home?
What are the exact numbers, and how do these numbers impact on the city and the city school system?
The Board wants to put a new levy on the ballot, but if it does, exactly how many people will it really impact. Precisely how many city property owners will be seeing hikes in their property tax? Certainly folks living outside the city who own property here will also be paying, but what I want to know is the exact number of home owners who live here 24/7 will be affected, and their income status ... employed, retired with a pension, retired and on Social Security, on public assistance. How many have children in the city school system verses private schools?
Rather than waste our time on studies on the downtown area, lets have a comprehensive study on the sorry state of the Youngstown School System. I seriously doubt that anyone here would take the time to read it, but such a study at least would be a good first step in turning the system around.
I'll post a link to the students' presentations, when they are available.
There were many innovative ideas.
I attended the presentation by the five student groups from Michigan. As I watched the proposals to lure students from the university zone to the downtown zone, I couldn't help but ask why Youngstown State University doesn't build one or more classroom buildings downtown. The question of luring students to downtown would be over. Many students would have to come downtown to attend their classes. Beyond that, it is up to the downtown businesses and entertainment venues to effectively sell their product to both the student population and the valley's general population.
One reason may be the Southwoods center in boardman. However i have heard that southwoods may not be for much longer.
Building on your idea it would be great if YSU and the YBI could do some type of a class together. It would be good for both the students and YBI.
That's an interesting idea Jay. Everyone seems to view YSU as a single entity to the north, and downtown as an entity to the south. Because of this, I think it's easy to overlook putting a YSU building downtown.
This morning on the Dan Rivers Show there was some very disturbing news that affects YSU.
Officials in Columbus are looking to take the Medical School in Rootstown away from us and give it to Cleveland, and promote a Community College for Youngstown that would not be a part of YSU, but would reduce the amount of State money that YSU would get.
While we're dreaming our dreams about YSU and downtown Youngstown we'd better wake up and start smelling the coffee. The state will decide our future and there's nothing we can do about it except cry.
At one time YSU had an extremely good Law School, but the state in it's wisdom took it away from us, and now they are going to take our Medical School away, and reduce our state funding. What's the next thing we will loose?
Maybe this is why no one suggested that YSU build a building downtown?
However, this is no reason to ignore the fact that YSU is a couple blocks from (and yet, seemingly miles away from) downtown. Making a more inviting connection between the two is still a good idea.
You're absolutely right.
By the way, here's an important link about what I spoke about i my last post:
http://www.vindy.com/content/opinion/editorial/315804746393642.php
Some time ago, I seem to remember about some plans for YSU to have some classes in the former Phar-Mor building. Whatever happened to that plan?
Outside of building a new building downtown, and finding an angel to come up with the money to pay for it, where could the University locate downtown, and what subjects would be taught there?
The private sector angels who have the money to endow to YSU have their limits, and there aren't too many outsiders that want to invest in the University.
Quote from: westsider on August 29, 2007, 09:38:27 AM
I'll post a link to the students' presentations, when they are available.
There were many innovative ideas.
Here's the link:
http://ourmedia.org/node/357294
Click the "media (original)" link, and a PDF will open.
YSU is moving in the direction of downtown, and trampling upon the rights of one of the city's taxpaying citizens in the process.
Perhaps YSU should have had a development plan in place before they started expanding in every direction. For a while the big kick was to go west. Then they went north over the expressway. Then they put housing to the east in the hollow. Now the big thing is to grow southward. You would have to be an athelete to walk from downtown to the Lyden House. About a mile, uphill all the way. Thats crazy.
When YSU was talking about expanding north the folks in my neighborhood were all excited about it because it would help the homeowners here, and they went all out to spruce up their lots and homes. All are long time home owners. Needless to say, when YSU opted for Smokey Hollow, we were all let down.
I agree with Rick that a FINAL MASTER PLAN should have been in place so that the property owners would have something to work with.
This is exactly why I take the "plans" for redevelopment in the city with a grain of salt. I don't know how many plans have been prepared only to be tossed in a corner and a new one commissioned. The only thing we can really count on is that todays plan will be superceeded by another, and we'll be no further ahead.