Arsons And Wick Park - Monday, November 23

[Youngstownshrimp]

iwasthere, You seem to be outspoken and concerned about the northside community and its renaissance.  We need all the help and assistance if we wish to better our community.  Can you give us an informal resume and track record of yourself so we may request your specific skills?  We all need to work together and produce,  I feel you may have something to contribute to the work load here.

I hope you don't mind my directness, but I was a military brat, my father did tours in Korea and was a green beret in Vietnam.  So I was taught early on that we all need to pull our own weight , because the ones who don't are the first eliminated.

You stated here that you want to be kept abreast of our onslaught, it would only be fair if you also keep us informed of your efforts as well.   

[iwasthere]

i and other forum members would like to be kept abreast on this matter via this chatroom or public meetings.

[Youngstownshrimp]

I forgot to add, Nevel's Temple will not be the owner of the properties, but merely the owner of the tax cert. to enable a forfeiture.  During the forfeiture process, if the free market produces an end user of the properties, the title can proceed into that entity once forfeited.  Remember, this forfeiture is only possible if the private tax cert. holder is willing and can be convinced to donate the certs. for community betterment.

[Youngstownshrimp]

First of all, Happy Thanksgiving Phil.

Okay, let's work.  First of all, we need a letter from Nevel's Temple, the City and the MVOC, establishing the urgency and situation of the Van Sickle properties.  This letter should request that all the tax certs. be donated to the community through Nevel's Temple.  This letter needs to be addressed to American Tax Funding, Cintina and Optimum, c/o Atty. John Zomoida.  Contrary to me doing it, this is a collective community project and not one person.  I already spoke with Rev. Nevel and had him come to the last meeting.  Someone from the group needs to secure the letter from the City and MVOC.  Once we have the letter, I will scan and e-mail to all parties.

Although this is not part of the process, I would like to see the case about Lien Forward and YNDC attempt to secure property through a tax cert. forfeiture.  A lot was said about this but no one has revealed the details, this might be helpful and I can have Atty. Chevlen look at what the problem may be.  I suspect, the appraisal might be greater than the tax cert. in this situation, meaning a nonforfeiture.

[DefendYoungstown]

Thank you, iwasthere. Your concern is duly noted. I can assure you that no group - religious or otherwise - will "take over" MVOC. MVOC is a blend of neighborhood/grassroots, faith-based, and institutional leadership. While many churches are members, so are other folks like yourself who choose not to be associated with organized religion. This diversity is what is the strength of the organization.

In regards to Wick Park, what is being suggested can be done by any entity. Ron had suggested that Nevel's Temple was interested in exploring the forfeiture, however, if this process is indeed possible, any other group could do so as well.

...and just as a point of information, the Wick Park situation is not a MVOC "campaign". I live in Wick Park and have volunteered to assist on an as needed basis but am learning as I go as well, as I think we all are.

[iwasthere]

I DO NOT LIKE USING ORGANIZE RELIGION AS A AGENT TO RECEIVE ANY TYPE OF ASSISTANCE FOR ANY PROJECT IN THE CITY AND ITS PROPERS. THESE ORGANIZE RELIGION CAN DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ANYONE THE CHOOSE TO DUE TO CURRENT LAWS THAT HAVE BEEN UPHELD BY THE US SUPREME COURT. PHIL I DO NOT LIKE MVOC BECOMING BUDDIES WITH ANY ORGANIZE RELIGION TO HELP WITH MVOC CAUSES. MVOC WAS CREATED BY THE WEAN FOUNDATION TO HELP STRUGGLING CITIES TO MAINTAIN SUSTAINABILITY THROUGH COMMUNITY ORGANIZORS FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE WITHOUT HAVING DISCRIMATION IN THEIR MISSION STATEMENT. WHAT PERTURB ME WAS I WAS TOLD BY SEVERAL PEOPLE AT RECENT DINNER AT VERNONS IN NILES AS WAY TO MEET OTHER CONCERN CITIZENS THAT NO WINE OR BEER OR ADULT REFRESHMENTS WERE TO BE SERVED DUE TO THE FACT SOME RELIGIOUS LEADERS OBJECTED. IT WAS NOT THEIR DECISION TO MAKE FOR THIS GROUP. I AM ARAID THE RELIGIOUS CIRCLES WILL TAKE OVER  MVOC AND THAT WILL BE A SAD DAY FOR MVOC.

[DefendYoungstown]

Ron:

Again, we'll spell it out plain as day for you:

1. No one thinks the tax certificate plan is a bad idea (if it is an actual possibility). Some folks doing this same thing in another neighborhoods have suggested that what you are suggesting has been tried and can't be done. The Wick Park group (including myself, Deb Weaver, everyone...right here in writing and on Tyler's blog) is saying to you that if you believe that this can be done through some sort of independent appraisal process, have an investor willing to create a loan situation for the legal fees, and have a group like Nevel's Temple willing to serve as the tax certificate: WE SUPPORT THIS APPROACH AND WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO MOVE FORWARD AND WILL ASSIST HOWEVER NEEDED. Prove that it can be done! No one is or even could "get in the way" if you wanted to proceed.

Is this clear enough? We have contacts at MVOC for Nevel's Temple. I will personally contact them and explain the same.

Everyone else who stayed to the end of the meeting understands the plan: from the communications aspect, to the adopt-a-street project (update: the city has boarded up the homes around Wick Park this week), the legal team aspect and the regular monthly meetings that will follow. This is what we can do as citizens.

If you are sincere about exploring the tax certificate situation, then please do so and please keep us updated. This is, unquestionably, the biggest piece.

This fourm can serve as a record of conversation & responsibilities.

Phil

P.S. Regarding the movies: I was with the city: purchased all the movies, worked out the deal with Trumbull Arts for projector use & space with Eric Ryan at the Covelli Centre, purchased the materials for the screen from Herb Soss, built the screen with Nick and Paris and successfully exectued a 7 week movie series in the summer. I began with the MVOC Dec. 1st. Also assisted this past summer (as needed) on my own time. Everyone knows this including yourself, Ron.

Good luck with the shrimp. I do hope you are successful.

[Youngstownshrimp]

I'm trying to do it, Phil, but it seems you guys stand in the way.

At the meeting, I brought two stakeholders from Rodef Sholom,  and Rev. Nevel.

One of the Rodef Sholom members walked out and Rev. Nevel left early saying that all everyone was talking about was the Arson and not a plan.  And I'm not even going to say what Herb Soss said when he vacated.

Point, you recorded on Tyler's blog that you were in, and everyone was ready to delve into the tax cert. approach.  When I stood up and started you remained silent and Ian tried to debunk the whole idea, you can verify this right here in this blog from Rowlands comment that I was shot down in the meeting.

Bottom line, for what ever reason, you guys are not going to support a tax cert. approach.  I called Gillespie and Ian yesterday, and as usual Ian doesn't return my calls.  The question about appraisals is very easy to understand in regards to the abandoned Van Sickle property, an independent appraiser will value them with a negative value, because they are now a liability, demolition cost, anyone in real estate can get this.  If they were occupied and up to code, the appraiser will place value on them, not when they are abandoned.  You know even Debra Weaver an attorney, said I am right, in writing.  So really Phil, I'm hearing more people tired of listening to you guys obstruct.

Oh, and about the outdoor movies, Yellow Creek Theater just donated a brand new  indoor screen to Lyndsey, is that giving up?  For the record, I recall you resigned from the city before the movies even started and we continued to work with Dubos , truth is they didn't need our help anymore.

Lastly Phil, why don't you guys just be up front with the community, as you told me awhile back?  The MVOC is hard at work pushing for legislation on another landbank and eminent domain powers, and you made the statement that the county tax cert. approach was a failure.   

You know, I really tried because I am a stakeholder, I'll just continue to produce with like minded people, I'll see you guys at the shrimp festival next year.

[JHughes330]

Good Afternoon everyone, I have two questions.....


1) There were valuable things in the 259 Park Carriage House as of last fall. Most people stealing were looking for copper etc not antiques etc. When the carraige house was torn down did they salvage anything inside?

2) That property was a Vansickle property... not sighting him for the fire BUT, that property was his responsibility, such as many other properties of his in decay what can we do about this? I thought about a letter to the editor to address the issue but wasn't sure?

[DefendYoungstown]

THEN DO IT, RON! I think everyone is really tired of hearing YOU complain about how everyone is hoping the "public" sector will do something about anything. At no time last night was was the city asked to provide anything other than initial assistance in boarding up the house which they promised to do anyway (which they did today). The action plans that were discussed where completely resident driven. When it came time at the end of the meeting to designate work group assignments and the group was formed to work through the title situation (and explore your suggestion further), you had already left (offer still stands by the way).


But let's just right to it now:
You stated that you know of a way how to do an independent appraisal of homes that may lower the assessed value of a home to the point where it is lower than the tax lien, thereby allowing for forfeiture (although Lien Forward and YNDC are attempting to do the very same thing at present and state that this isn't possible). You also state that you have an "investor" willing to offer a loan to cover the legal fees. More importantly, you state that you have a entity (Nevel's Temple - a Wick Park neighborhood stakeholder) willing to serve as the entity willing and responsible to receive the tax certificate. If this actually can be done, on behalf of the entire group: WHAT IS THE HOLD UP? It's not like you need our permission? What am I missing? We want the houses turned over to local stakeholders!

Phil

P.S. We do free outdoor movies in Youngstown as well, Ron. Get several hundred a week downtown in the summer at the Covelli Center. Real nice event. You were part of organizing that effort...then quit on us, remember?

Sorry, I'm a very tolerant person and typically the last person to lose diplomacy but I think just about everyone is tired of your divisive approach. It's not helpful.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Rick,

It was good to see you at the meeting,  it is not suppose to rain today, so I'll be out at the eastside farm digging the ponds again.  I need to release some of this stress from last nights community disorganizing.

You know, although I lived in the northside for many years, over ten years ago I found Poland was a community at the cutting edge in community action, so I volunteered there and you saw the results.  Free outdoor movies, parks, pathways, country store, etc.

Last night, was like stepping back in time when I attended NSCC meetings then, but truthfully, it is worse now.  One thing I learned, we will never advance when we as a community depend on the public sector to solve our problems.  In Poland, we recognized right away that the Village government was an obstruction rather than a promoter. Our community group in Poland, never waited for public money , we raised the funding ourselves and initiated projects as  private sector volunteers.  Everything I heard last night was the same sorry diatribe of anti free enterprise.  One bright spot, the public sector is broke and insolvent meaning the only way out is the private sector and the return of "we have to do it ourselves."   

[Youngstownshrimp]

Rusty, the million dollar question is invalid.  it is sad that many would like to ignore the facts and continue to go down the road of inaction or feel good band aid reaction.  For privacy sake, get in touch with me if you or anyone else wish to engage in the facts.

To answer your question about "why didn't I do it?" , again, I did on properties my investors were interested in.  Again, I am not interested in owning mortars and brick anymore, I already live in an historic home on the northside and it was secured while it was boarded up, back then the method was bank owned properties.  Now, as you heard, banks don't even want to own properties, because things have gone so far downhill in real estate investing in Youngstown.

[AllanY2525]

Rick - it was great to finally be able to associate a face with your name...way overdue.

For those on this board who were not at the meeting, I brought a digital camcorder and
made a rudimentary recording of the majority of the meeting. There is little to no footage of
the audience, out of respect for their privacy, etc... but the main speakers did not have a
problem with being on film, including representatives from Resettle Youngstown, the Youngstown
Fire Department, etc.

I have about an hour's worth of video to look through, and will try to get some of the more
relevant highlights of the meeting converted into short clips and up on the website as soon as I
can. 

I agree with Rick that right now, emotions are running high (mine included...I had a **lot** of
complaints to voice at the meeting).  I made a donation to Resettle Youngstown - and was happy
to do so.  Jim Converse is a good guy and cares a whole lot about what he is doing to help the city,
and the neighborhood.

For now, it is okay to be re-active to the problems at hand... but in the long term, we will have to
be pro-active on a sustained basis in order to save these properties and, ultimately, find new owners
and uses for them to turn them back into productive assetts again.

As for the person from downtown that said the city has to keep empty streets lit because of liability
concerns, how about closing off the the street if there is nothing left on it and then removing the street lights
once the street is closed to traffic - this should eliminate any liability issues concerning motorists driving
down an unlit street, right?  The amount of electricity save can then be diverted elsewhere, where it is
needed much, much more.  Doesn't the city buy it's electricity at a bulk rate for public lighting, etc ?

The television news media were conspicuous by their absence at the meeting - did anyone call any of the local
broadcasters and inform them that the meeting was going to take place? 

Rusty - I think it was you who said that you might be able to get me access to the insides of some of the
houses around the park, and close by while I am in town this time... I want to take you up on that opportunity
and get as many photos as possible.  My only alterior motive here is a love of historic architecture.. but showcasing
them on the web site might persuade parties with the financial resources and the motivation to make an investment in
one of them, fix it up and bring it back to life.

If there is anything that I could be doing to help via my website, I am re-iterating my offer to provide hosting
space - I own a domain and the physical server hardware, so we could pretty much web-publish as much
material as we want, including information like neighborhood surveys, concerns of the stake holders, problems
dealing with the city and county to resolve issues, change procedures, etc.  It may be one way to help hold
city council accountable for their actions - or lack thereof.

I, too liked the idea of "adopt a house", or block, etc.  If serious, committed individuals are willing to step
forward and start keeping an eye on these at-risk properties it would really help in preventing the same fate
that 259 Park Avenue suffered fom occuring again.

There seemed to be a general concensus that there are three basic things that can make a vacant property
much less likely to be a target:

1) Board the place up properly, then re-check it frequently to ensure that it stays that way.
2) Keep the grounds up, including cutting back or outright removing bushes, etc that could hide would-be vandals
3) Light the place at night - by whatever means available/necessary.

[northside lurker]

Hopefully the "board'em up" group stays together long enough to get the job done.  But, after that, the "adopt-a-house/street" group will, hopefully, keep them maintained.  At least, that's what I think the intention of the adopt-a-house/street idea should be.  Some of us don't live in the neighborhood, so can't "adopt" a house even though we might like to.

[Rick Rowlands]

I attended the meeting this evening.  Here are my thoughts as someone who comes into this from the outside.

1) Who sponsored that meeting?  I heard about four or five groups mentioned.

2) There seemed to be quite a bit of support for "new legislation".  We tried the new legislation idea after the Stambaugh building incident.  Where does that stand now?  Legislation is a "feel good" fix, but unless it has teeth and is enforced it doesn't help the situation.    What about a new law that would give property owners the option of forfeiting a vacant property voluntarily for forgiveness of tax obligations? If I own a vacant house in the city that has lets say 10,000 in tax liens, I give the house to the government and then just walk away.  The govt. writes off the lost taxes and then sells the property at a nominal price to a new owner who signs a binding agreement pledging to maintain and improve the property.  Would that work?  Kinda like bankruptcy for houses.

3) Ron Edelstein presented a plan for forfeiture of properties when property tax liens exceed the value of the property. He was shot down without much further debate.  Ron claims to have done this many times, so may have merit.  But nobody will even look into this further.  I am not an expert in this area but I would think that this could be a tool to acquire some properties and shouldn't have been dismissed so readily.

4) The one good thing that I saw was a willingness to band together and boar up vacant houses.  I saw the enthusiasm that always accompanies these ideas.  People are stirred up by an event (arsons, Stambaugh windows removed)then band together to tackle the problem (roving vigilante house boarding parties, landmark structure ordinance), and then the excitement fades away and the effort fizzles. (Landmark ordinance apparently went nowhere.)  What will happen to the board'em up parties?  Not trying to be a downer but thats the life cycle of crisis caused community involvement.  Maybe one or two people will be left after a few months who would continue to maintain the boarded up houses.  I hope it doesn't end up like that.  I would like to see the group maintain its enthusiasm for this.

5) some ideas were put forth to put lights up on vacant properties, or to board up windows or do other maintenance and then add additional liens on the properties to cover the costs.  Liens are why these properties remain vacant.  Adding more will just dig a deeper grave for that particular property.

At least I finally met Allan!  Newest member of the Doers club!