Passenger Rail Service For Youngstown (?)

[AllanY2525]

I agree with Towntalk 100% - a "WPA-Like" program would be a good thing
for the nation, given the current enonomic crisis, because it would kill TWO
birds with ONE stone:

1) Provide [nearly] IMMEDIATE jobs for a workforce that desperately needs
some new jobs.

2) Fix a crumbling infrastructure that has been neglected for literally DECADES.

Nothing pumps money into the economy like DECENT PAYING JOBS.  The FED
would get part of their investment back in the form of payroll and income
taxes, which would help to stretch those taxpayer dollars a little farther
when it comes to public works stuff.

As far as "light rail" lines, I was thinking about this the other day and an
idea occurred to me that may - *OR may NOT* - be feasible:  What if the
government were to re-cycle GOOD, USED railing from [now-abandoned]
rail lines and modify/adapt it for the use of all-electric train cars?  In the
Washington, DC metropolitan area, we have Metro Rail (ie: our version of
"The Subway").  The cars run on "standard" rails - the only difference is
the presence of the "third rail" (ie: the electric rail that runs 770 volt
power for the trains).

The cars on DC's Metro system are all electric cars - they are heated and
air conditioned, and each and every car can be operated as a single, free
standing unit all its own.  Every car has operator booths at BOTH ends of
the train car, with a complete set of state-of-the-art electronic controls, etc
and also contains the electric motors to make it go.  The cars are comfortable,
QUIET, and have a top speed of just over 65 miles per hour.  They weigh a
FRACTION of what a diesel locomotive weighs, and are easily service when
they DO break down (which is very seldom...)

Because each and every train car in this system can run independently, outages
are pretty much unheard of.  If one car develops a mechanical or electrical
problem, the rest of the train can "carry" that car to the next station, where it
is simply removed from the train - whether replaced with another car, or not.

If an ACCURATE survey could be done on both a local, and regional, basis, then
it might *theoretically* be possible to create light commuter train services,
in areas where there is sufficient demand for it to be feasible and cost-effective.

A "WPA-Like", government-sponsored project to recycle usable rails, etc and
create such a system would definitely generate jobs, and local metal fabricating
plants could manufacture and supply - to the government - the miscellaneous
nuts, bolts, and hardware pieces needed to re-use and adapt old [still good]
rails to light transit use.

Recycling good, usable railing would greatly reduce the costs associated with
such a project, as well as speed up the pace of construction.

Youngstown may have lost the mills -  but when they were running, the
Mahoning Valley produced some of the best and finest steel IN THE WORLD.
Nobody knew how to make high quality stuff better than the folks here in the
Mahoning Valley.

Gasoline is at its lowest per-gallon price in years, but you can BET your A**
that next summer, like clockwork, it's gonna go up again - right when the
summer vacation season starts.  It does this every single year, without
exception.  All-electric train cars are environmentally friendly, and they cost
far less to operate than trains that use Diesel locomotives.  This kind of project
could help us to collectively reduce our dependence on oil.

Anyways, just toying around with some ideas - not sure if they would work or
not, but I hope the new administration at least considers the possibilities if, and
when, it decides to roll out some Public Works projects.

[Towntalk]

I'll buy that. In fact the Obama administration is talking about such projects.

Given all the people currently unemployed, and the report to be released tomorrow (12/5/08) will take that number higher, I'm sure that the lines would be very long for the jobs that a WPA or CCC could create.

Our infrastructures are in desperate need of upgrading so I would hope that before things like lite-rail are considered, that our roads, highways and bridges are brought up to standard.

Also, such things as sewers, water lines, and sidewalks need upgrading.

These are all things that provided work in the first WPA.

As for the CCC, as I recall, they took care of national parks.

[northside lurker]

Maybe we should bring back programs like the WPA, or CCC to make some of these much needed infrastructure improvements?

[Towntalk]

The banking industry is seeking billions of dollars in bail out ... the auto industry is seeking billions in bail out ... nationally the unemployment nears 8% ... food prices are out of sight ... health care costs are driving families into bankruptcy ... wages are stagnet ... states like Ohio and California are billions of dollars in the red ... we are in deep recession as a nation and its expected to continue thru 2010 ... cities are in deep financial hurt, so where are we going to get the money to build light-rail systems?

The only way government gets money is through taxation, so what do we do, find new things to tax? What do we tax, and where are families going to get the money to pay the taxes?

Why is it so difficult to understand that for the foreseeable future we aren't in a position to throw money at every project that comes down the pike?

[irishbobcat]

Light rail mass transit (not high speed trains)costs 1/4 of what putting in  more 4 lane highways would cost....

Dennis Spisak

[Towntalk]

I couldn't agree with you more Rick. When I worked in Pittsburgh back in the late 1960's and early '70's I took the B&O back and forth on weekends, it was great. I'd get into Pittsburgh around 7:30 AM and be at work at 8:00.

Sorry to hear that the local mill isn't set up to manufacture rails

As for High Speed rail, as I said in another post, we've been hearing talk about it for over 25 years, and we're no closer to getting it now than when they first issued their first report.

Where's the state going to get the money. It's so deep in debt now that its not funny. As for the Feds ... by the time they bail out all the banks, Auto manufacturers etc. They're going to be in just as bad shape.

My word, when you factor in the Social Security and Medicare woes ... the national debt and all the other fiscal woes our government is facing, how could any reasonable person think that government can go on a spending binge?

What's so outrageous is the fact that these same people want to kill the industries that we do have in the name of saving the planet.

Pipe dreams aren't going to solve our immediate problems or put one scrap of food on our table.

[Rick Rowlands]

V&M Star does not make rails and are not set up to do that.  Our nation has made a conscious decision that its too dirty, noisy and ugly to manufacture.  We would rather shuffle assets and leave the manufacturing to the rest of the world.

The Erie Lackawanna and P&LE used to run the Steel Kings, Nos. 28 and 29 each way between Cleveland and Pittsburgh everyday.   It was hardly a "high speed" rail line, and the trains mananged to haul commuters between the three cities for decades.  In fact many EL executives whose offices were in Terminal Tower lived around Youngstown and took the train to work.  So we don't need high speed (read high cost) rail service, conventional rail service would do nicely. 

[Towntalk]

Ever heard of weather conditions, or other circumstances when landing at Cleveland or Pittsburgh is out of the question?

That's what I was referring to.

As to rail service, I saw the web site, and I fully understand what "the larger project" is, but I'm also well aware of what it would take to get Youngstown linked up to a high speed system.

A system as envisioned would cost a huge amount just to lay new tracks because high speed rail would require concrete ties like those currently being installed along Amtrak's Northeast corridor from Washington to Boston.

Again, it would require the instillation of special electric equipment since the new high speed trains use electricity as they have on the Northeast corridor route.

Amtrak has a limited number of high speed trains because of the huge cost of the trains. (Multimillion's of dollars per train.)

To be sure, the standard diesel could be used to move people from this area to a point where they could transfer to a high speed train, but to think that a high speed train could come through Youngstown would defeat the whole purpose of a high sped system.

Discovery Channel had a program recently about high speed trains. Amtrak's high speed train used in the Northeast corridor takes 7 hours to get from Boston to Washington, and nowhere along that route does it stop at every cow pasture town along the route.

I also would suggest that in my lifetime we won't see passanger service return to Youngstown, all other opinions not withstanding.

Why? The huge costs involved ... in the billions .

Could we benefit? Yes, by manufacturing the rails and electric towers.

An article in todays paper reports that our one local steel mill is looking to expand, and if this plan goes through, it could have a shot at a hefty contract to manufacture rails.

[northside lurker]

Again, this isn't about bringing high-speed rail just to Youngstown.  This is about a line between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and Youngstown is a logical stop between the two larger cities.

Is it common for Cleveland residents or Pittsburgh residents to fly from their city to the other?  If this is common, then I can see how discussing the airport is relevant.  But, I would imagine that most people would just drive from Cleveland to Pittsburgh. (or take a train, if one were made available)

[Towntalk]

What trains I hear are using those tracks? CSX? Norfolk & Western?

I agree about having high sped rail service here, just as I agree about the airport.

As others have pointed out the runway is large enough to land Air Force One, hardly a small jet, yet none of the airlines are even considering it as an alternate stop over when traffic is too busy in Clevemand or Pittsburgh.

There are a whole lot of things we would like to have here in Youngstown, but unless things radically change, we shant get them.

Wouldn't it be better to set our sights lower for projects that are within our reach? Certainly our city officials are looking at it this way, so why can't we?

[Rick Rowlands]

The "strange hours" that the Amtrak trains would keep in Youngstown have nothing to do with Conrail, which ceased to exist in 2000 and doesn't even operate the trackage that Amtrak used through Youngstown.  Even in the days of the Erie Limited the stop in Youngstown would be in the middle of the night.  Why is that?   The long distance trains that pass through here are in the New York to Chicago run.  It takes from 16 to 20 hours for the trip by rail.  If a train leaving either city leaves in the afternoon for morning arrival at the other city it would put it through here in the wee hours of the morning. One of the perils of living halfway between the two cities.  Nobody is going to change the train schedule so that the two local people per day who would ride the train could board during daylight hours.

The B&O station simply is the best location for an Amtrak station as it is located on FRA class 4 trackage, while I think the NS Lordstown Secondary has been downgraded to class 1 standards. 

Here is another question for all of you wishing for high speed rail.  Our area built a huge airport north of town with a runway that stretches halfway to Cleveland.  Aside from the military base its only used for planes to Disneyworld.  Now that the airport has been proven to be a failure the big push is on to create another government funded mass transit project for a diferent transportation mode.  Will it too become an expensive but underutilized public works facility?

[Towntalk]

I just added two more pictures to my Webshots site showing the first Erie RR Passanger Depot in Youngstown. It was located at Commerce and Phelps Street.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ladynews500

These pictures were taked in the early 1900's.

This depot had quite a history, some funny some tragic, but I shant recall them here, but if anyone is interested, I post some of them under Youngstown Memories.

I also uploaded a photo of the first Pennsylvania RR Passanger Depot on Spring Commons. The photo was taken in 1889.

[AllanY2525]

Question:

Are there still tracks on the south side of the Mahoning river that are in use?

If someone wants to tie a passenger terminal to the Chevrolet Center, why not build
it right across the river from the Center, and just build an indoor cat-walk over the
the river, from the passenger station to the Center?

It could be an alternative to trying to re-install tracks on the north side.

[Towntalk]

Question:

One of the drawbacks about the B&O has been the fact that service has historically been limited since Conrail controls the tracks resulting in strange hours that Amtrack was able to run trains through Youngstown.

Given the economic conditions, would it be possable for new tracks to be laid if they will only be used four times a day or less?

By the way, I added the PRR and B&O RR pictures to my Webshots site completing the series of railroads that provided passanger service to Youngstown over the years.

[northside lurker]

The new station near the Chevrolet center is proposed "sometime in the future," and the idea of using the Erie Terminal building instead was only proposed in this thread.

Again, I don't know very much about this.  But I'm guessing that the new station being proposed would be built to service a new high speed rail line that also doesn't exist yet.