Living on the North side

[northside lurker]

Thanks so much for your reply Allan!

I've looked at your site many times!  I do have a question for you.  Do you have problems with vandalism while you're away?  I could see people taking 2 different attitudes toward your properties: 1. This person is working on this house, so there is new stuff to steal, and 2. This person is working on this house, so lets leave it alone and strip a house that isn't being cared for.

While I'm fairly positive that the wiring throughout the house is old, (too old, I'm pretty sure the outlets were not 3 pronged.) the pictures that the realtor sent me show a newer breaker box in the basement.  Considering the number of switches in the box, there are either 3 separate panels for each apartment, or there were only a few circuits in the house originally.

I'm glad to hear that the roof might cost less than I originally thought.  I think it's at the end of its useful life, though.  I realize that the pictures I posted on-line are fairly small, but when I looked at the original images at full resolution, the roof almost looked like slate because the shingles were so deteriorated.

Were you able to tell that there were structural issues?  Could you feel an unevenness in the floors?  I've toured houses with rather uneven floors before.  But, this house seems to have fairly straight, level floors.

The copper plumbing has been completely stripped.  They even smashed a few holes in the walls where they thought there would be more plumbing.  I definitely agree about using PEX tubing instead of new copper.  There is an old furnace.  I saw it in the pictures the realtor sent.  But I don't know if it works.  Unfortunately, I didn't go into the basement.  The house made such a bad first impression on me that I didn't want to waste the realtor's time by venturing down there. (same for the attic, which was only accessible through the outside entrance)  So, I don't know if there is a water heater.

How likely is it that an inspector will be able to determine the condition of the water and sewer lines from the street?

I'm not sure what I would do about the windows, yet.  I'm not too concerned about the woodwork because it has all been painted.  It's not all that ornate around the windows and doors anyway. (and so could be recreated with new wood, if necessary)

I might be showing how naive I am, but I wonder if it would pay to take down the plaster around all the outside walls?  This way, the walls could be insulated, AND it would be easier to run new wiring.

[AllanY2525]

Westsider:

I looked at the photos you uploaded to the other message board, and I think
you are making a GOOD choice with this house.  I bought a turn of the century,
yellow brick house on Woodbine Ave. that needed a LOT more work, and it is
worth every DIME I have put into it because of the quality of materials and
workmanship that went into the place when it was built.

Check out: http://allthingsyoungstown.net and click on Historic Homes
and Buildings, then click on No. 114 Woodbine.  You'll see how much time, work
and money I am pouring into this house.  The HVAC system is about to be
installed in the next couple of weeks and we will start closing her up inside
right after this stage is completed.


Now, as far as the costs involved in fixing this old house, they will be quite
substantial.  Over the long term, you could easily pour $60,000 into the place
to do it RIGHT.  However, there are things you could do in the near term to
make this house a long-term, affordable project.

The hardwood floors don't look that bad - carpet over them for now, and down
the road you could re-finishe them, one or two rooms at a time.  The carpeting
will be way cheaper in the short term, and will help with the heating bills.


BEFORE you buy the house, check out a few things:

1) Is the house still connected to public utilities?  My house on Woodbine was
off the electric grid for SO long that the city simply refused to re-connect
service unless and until the house was completely re-wired.  Call a city building
inspector to come and look at the wiring in the house (if the power is currently
OFF) and tell you if the house can be reconnected without having to rewire it
completely.  If so, you can always upgrade the wiring later - ROOM BY ROOM.

Start with a new "heavy-up" (ie: lines from the street to the house, main breaker
panel to replace those old screw-in fuses).  When these homes were built, there
just wasn't much need for electrical power compared to today - the wiring in these
old homes is often overloaded by modern appliances, etc and sometimes it isn't
even properly grounded (ie: three prong outlets).  In the old days, 60 amps worth
of fusebox capacity was plenty - NOT NOW.  The current building codes in
Youngstown require something like 100 or 150 amp service in order to be adequate
for today's needs.  Many of the older houses in town don't even have 240 Volt
service - only 120.  If you are going to run an electric stove, water heater,
clothes dryer, etc you will need 240 volt service.

2) A new roof is going to cost you around $4,000 to $6,000 - I paid about $6K
for my new room at Woodbine Avenue, and me and my own crew had to completely
demolish the existing front porch roof right down to bare brick pillars, and start
over again.  We also eliminated an old, obsolete chimney while the roofers had
everything taken apart.

If the roof just has a couple bad spots/leaks, then PATCH it, for now. The main
thing is to get the place weathertight A.S.A.P. -  before more damage can
occur.

3) Have a building inspector check for structural faults and failures - these are
VERY costly to correct and, in most cases, CANNOT be done by yourself ie: a
licensed contractor must be used to replace any load-bearing members of the
house.  My crew and I were able to "squeak by" when replacing one section of
wall framing that held up the middle of the house, because my contractor was
on-site doing other structural work (and he let us borrow six, 75,000 pound
jacks to lift up the center of the house while we did the re-framing work).

4) Are the furnace, hot water heater and plumbing still intact?  A new furnace will
cost you a few thousand dollars to install, but the high-efficiency of today's
furnaces will pay you back, over the long run.  I got quotes ranging between
$6,000 (the deal of a lifetime) and $17,000 (from a jerk who did not know what
he was doing with H.V.A.C. and these old houses).


If the plumbing has been ripped out by the scavengers already, REPLACE IT
WITH PLASTIC PIPE.  The newer plastic pipe is more resistant to freezing,
does NOT require soldering at pipe joints, and it is flexible - which allows
bending it without kinking it, etc.  It is MUCH easier to work with than copper
tubing (and probably somewhat less expensive).  Youngstown has hard water,
and plastic pipes have a resistance to the buildup of "scale" inside them.

5) Does the house still have a working water and sewer main coming in from the
street?  Digging up the front yard all the way to the street to install a new
rough in for water and sewer can cost several thousand dollars.  We had to dig
up the basement floor and install all new sewer lines at the Woodbine Ave. house
because the sewer pipes were made of the old ceramic stuff and were crushed
underneath the floor.

6) As far as missing architectural features (the fireplace mantles, etc) have you
considered buying them from an antique dealer?  Another possibility is to look
for houses on the city's DEMO list and see if you can contact the owners for
salvage purposes - you might be able to find some of these items in houses
that are ready to be torn down soon and recycle them for your house - with
the owner's permission, of course.

6) New windows can be expensive, but there are alternatives.  Does the house
have storm windows?  Storm windows can really cut down on heat loss and since
they are attached to the outside of the window frames they would not require
that you disturb the existing windows and wood work inside the house.

There are companies that make WOODEN window sashes that will exactly replace
the wooden sashes in the house - with double pane, thermal glazing in the new
sashes.  There are spring clips that can be installed in the window jams to hold
the sashes up when they are opened - WITHOUT having to tear apart the interior
wood work and restore the old rope-pully-counterweight mechanisms.  I don't
know what the cost is on these modern wooden windows, but if you are trying
to keep the historical look of the place they are a viable alternative to vinyl
windows.

7) Since the house needs repairs to the walls and ceilings, start with the ceilings
on the second floor FIRST - tear them down and install fiberglass insulation before
you hang new, sheetrock ceilings.  Run a new piece of wiring for the overhead
light while you have the the ceiling down in each room. 

EVERY time you knock down the plaster on an exterior wall - install insulation
and new wiring for that wall before putting up new sheetrock.  The NUMBER ONE
reason these old houses are so bad on energy is the fact that they do NOT
have any insulation in them, just dead air space inside the walls.

Even with an older, less efficient furnace in the basement, insulating the house
will bring a BIG reduction in your heating bills - and you can claim a deduction on
your taxes for doing anything that makes the house more energy efficient.

When making your final decision whether to buy the house or not, consider what
it will cost you to simply get the place into habitable condition - ie: everything
works and the place is water tight.  The rest can come later, little by little, over
time.  If you can live in the house with one bedroom, one bathroom, and a working
kitchen and don't mind the mess it could be a livable situation for you.

I hope this information helps.  It's a beautiful old house - I would buy it.

[northside lurker]

Thanks for the reply Jaime.

I visited the house yesterday.  I walked around the neighborhood a little.  I walked from Elm and Woodbine to Broadway to Ohio, to  North Heights to Fifth, to Fairgreen.  It seemed pretty quiet, except for the traffic on Fifth.

I made this thread at another site:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18327.0.html
Further down, I made a picture tour of the house.

[Jaime Hughes]

I live on the 400 block of Fairgreen. From what I heard from some YPD was that once you cross over Belmont that's when it gets really bad. If you live between Ford and Belmont and down towards Wick park you'll be alright, just like living on the northside, anticipate anything but it's not too bad.

[northside lurker]

I'm looking at a new prospect on Fairgreen.  I might be looking at it this Friday.  Right now, I just want to stabilize the property.  I'll decide if I want to live there later.

Any thoughts about the 200 block of Fairgreen?

[Leah]

Wow!  The Golden Dawn is seriously wireless now?  That made my day!

[northside lurker]

Welcome to the war. Grab a helmet.

I really would like to do my small part to help reverse the spread of blight.  So far, I've just been all talk, however. (see some of my previous posts about other houses)

I understand that there are too many houses for the number of people currently living in Youngstown.  However, I wish there was some kind of volunteer committee in place (I'd be willing to be a part of this committee) who could determine whether a house in question is beyond repair / has no architectural merit and should be demolished, or put into some kind of system where the house could be "mothballed" and later offered to someone to restore and live in for $1.

Jay is right, this house on North Heights is likely to end up on the demolition list.  But it should be saved at the expense of other houses/buildings that truly are beyond repair.  The buildings Mary Krupa mentioned earlier in this post, might fall into the category of truly beyond repair.  I have only seen exterior pictures on this site, but they look as though they have been stripped and prepared for demolition already.  Because they have been open to the weather for at least a year, it's unlikely that they could easily be saved.

[Defend Youngstown]

Welcome to the war. Grab a helmet.

[jay]

This vandalism is just another example of how these criminals are destroying our city.

How long will it take before this house ends up on the demolition list?

[northside lurker]

Just a little update.  I called the realtor yesterday, and she says that the house I was interested in was stripped of copper.  Apparently, they didn't just cut the visible pipes in the basement, they smashed walls to get the plumbing to the second floor, too.  I can't take on a project that large--especially since I don't have easy access to the house.

[Elmo-Ytown]

Not all of these buildings can be allowed to sit and rot and be an eyesore until someone finally takes an interest. Sometimes they just have to go, sad yes, but also good, as it is another block of the city that will no longer scare away visitors, but instead welcome them in.

[Mary_Krupa]

I understand the deal fell through to build student apartments next to Stambaugh Auditiorium. I am glad. However, it looks like they may put retail there.

I am really upset that these beautiful brick buildings will disappear. They are in scale for the location, i.e., they don't overpower or interfere with the auditorium, they are pleasing and of interesting architecture and they are part of the overall look of Youngstown. Part of our heritage. Why does this happen over and over?  New is not necessarily better. Just look at all of the ugly buildings on campus!

[northside lurker]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I think I'm going to set up an appointment to see the house.

If anyone has more to add, I'd still be glad to hear it.

[Towntalk]

Phil:

Thanks for the good news, and I would like to ask if there is any timeline for these new projects?

[Defend Youngstown]

I also live on the Northside (in an apartment building on Park Ave & Pennsylvania Ave). Hunter Morrison from YSU lives across the hall from me. I've lived in this location for about a year and a half and haven't really had any problems whatsoever. Prior to that, I lived for several years on the corner of Elm/Broadway. There was a few negative instances but they were generally few and far between. I also lived on Illinois Ave for almost my entire time as an undergraduate at YSU. So, adding it all up, I've lived in the Wick Park are for about 7-8 years and I've never seen it better than right now. If I could rate the neighborhood from a scale from 1-10 (1 being horrible, 10 being wonderful) starting in the mid/late 90's to now, I'd give it a 4 when I first moved there in the 90's and a 6 1/2 maybe 7 now. However, I'm basing that on current conditions. More young professionals are moving to the greater north side, the police protection is significantly increasing, the Wick Park renovation project will begin implementation, a $24 million student housing project will begin on Elm, and the site next to Stambaugh Auditorium (boarded up houses) is close to a deal to bring a Rite Aid/CVS/Walgreens to that location (see: http://www.vindy.com/news/2008/sep/26/developer-abandons-student-housing-plan/), Stambaugh Auditorium is undergoing a multi-million dollar capital campaign...so I think the time to get in is now because I believe the neighborhood is on the rise and such investments reflect it. That's my two cents.

PK

P.S. Oh yeah,...you're also w/in walking distance of the Golden Dawn (which is now wireless...seriously...it's awesome)!