The River … the river!

[Towntalk]

Some wise person observed that the surest sign of insanity is repeading a blunder over and over again expecting different results.

The folks that sponsored the group of German students obviously didn't do a good job of educating them before they drew up their vision for the river area or for any of the other areas that they covered.

Consider downtown Youngstown in 1980 ... hopeless dispare ... 2013 ... optomism born out of resergence of interest that has given birth to completed projects from the private sector.

[sfc_oliver]

I can't say anything about Youngstown and what they should do, But I have seen river walks all over the world and they are nice whether built up or more on the wild side.

There is a bike trail that mostly follows the river starting just about the Struthers/lowellville line that goes all the way to new Castle. It does stay about 100 ft to 100 yards from the river bank though. Mostly because of the RR.

But there is talk in Lowellville of taking out a dam and doing some kind of river walk area. never mind that just above that 4ft dam is some great fishing that would probably disappear.....

[Towntalk]

Who's bickering? We're discussing ... personally westsider has done more to educate folks about our wonderful town than anyone else ... just look at all his posts at UrbanOhio forum.

That being said, Rick has made some very good points ... he's the best.

Finally:

EDATA


http://www.eastgatecog.org/


http://www.eastgatecog.org/EnvironmentalPlanning/MahoningRiverRestorationProject.aspx



Mahoning River Consortium


http://www.mahoningriver.com/



http://www.mahoningriver.com/projects.htm



http://www.ysu.edu/mahoning_river/research_reports.htm

[Rick Rowlands]

Another note about the river.  Don't be so scared of it people.  It is not as bad as the EPA wants us to believe.  Also, there is full river access along Roger Lindgren Way from Division Street up to Girard.  That is a public street and that section of riverfront is now open.

[Rick Rowlands]

I was a little perturbed that the German students recommended building an industrial heritage park east of the Covelli Center.  Nobody ever bothered to come talk to someone who is actually building an industrial heritage park.  I guess if it doesn't happen downtown then it doesn't happen? 

The land along the river from Crab Creek to West Ave. on the east bank is owned by Norfolk Southern, who would take a dim view of anyone trying to "redevelop" their right of way.  On the west bank there is the Anthony's property, the B&O Station all the way up to West Avenue.  You may all remember that there was a trail built from the B&O to West Ave. at one time but just like most govt. projects there was no money or desire to maintain what was built.  The boat dock is still there rotting away.

I have always felt that master planning for cities was a waste of time and money, as the plans are never implemented and really cannot be since it is impossible for a government to predict or control how private individuals utilize their own private property.  Just think, there was no master plan in effect when all of downtown Youngstown was built.  The first settlers laid out the streets and sold lots, but from then on it was spontaneous order that developed to create what we have now.

The one thing I did note about the German study is that profit generating activities are shunned in favor of those that require government subsidies to exist.  I would rather see the United building full of manufacturing jobs instead of an indoor arena that is a sinkhole for nonexistent tax dollars. 

[iwasthere]

tt and westsider i will put both on yellow. if you do not stop this bickering. tt, there is a bike trail that starts at the park by the b and o station but the bike trail has overgrowth.

[Towntalk]

A starting place would be EDATA. They're located downtown somewhere, and may very well have an online presence.

Several years ago, there was talk about bike trails along the river, and there is an active group devoted to the Mahoning River ...they also have an online presence ... there was also talk about a project at rivers edge in the area near the old Republic steel office building.

DeBartelo also talked about putting something in down by the river a number of years ago.

[northside lurker]

Give me a bloody break westsider, the Vindicator over the 33 years is repleat with all the studies that have come down the pike, and all you have to do is go to the Vindicator's Google archives to read about them, they were all page 1 stories when they were released, and by the way, I have revived my research service and charge for any research I do, after all, my time has value and no longer do things on the cheap.


FYI: here's the link ... Starting point 1980

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=pqgf-8x9CmQC&dat=19260321&b_mode=2

  You're the one who brought up all of these studies.  I've only been living in the valley for 12.75 years, (and have only started to make myself aware of valley news over the last 7, or so) and don't remember reading about an actual redevelopment study relating to reuse of land along the river.  In that time, all I remember reading about were student projects looking at different parts of Youngstown.

[Towntalk]

Give me a bloody break westsider, the Vindicator over the 33 years is repleat with all the studies that have come down the pike, and all you have to do is go to the Vindicator's Google archives to read about them, they were all page 1 stories when they were released, and by the way, I have revived my research service and charge for any research I do, after all, my time has value and no longer do things on the cheap.


FYI: here's the link ... Starting point 1980

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=pqgf-8x9CmQC&dat=19260321&b_mode=2

[iwasthere]

i agree with the previous bloggers about these studies, impliment one and call it a day. whether or not the stds plans are taken seriously by the powers to be in this valley. i feel honored that stds from all city planning careers use our valley to showcase their knowledge about city planning.

[northside lurker]

After studying Youngstown since October, one student "thought it would be a city without a downtown and urban life and be vacant"

Another "expected it to be worse with a lot of vacant and torn-down buildings"

Did they really study Youngstown for 4 months and really not know about Youngstown?

Have you read many descriptions of Youngstown?  If these students read the same things I've read, they probably thought it was going to look like Hiroshima in the mid-1940s.

[northside lurker]

The problem is that ever since the mills closed, there have been literally dozens of studies done on what to do with the land and not one of those studies have been implemented. Are we to keep having more studies that will be written then tossed aside?

If we were to gather all those previous studies and select a committe of businessmen to glean out the best of the studies, perhaps we could at long last come up with one master plan that could be seen through to completion.

In the meanwhile, the land stands empty ... tax revinue from that land is lost ... and thousands of dollars have been wasted on endless studies. Are we going to have to wait 33 more years before someone finally comes forward with a doable plan that can at long last become a brick and morter reality?

Pipe dream after pipe dream after bloody pipe dream just doesn't cut it, but then there are those folks that go into almighty swoons over every new dream that comes down the pike.

It's like everything else that has been left to the dreamers in Youngstown. Private enterprise is turning this town around, yet the visionaries remain in their little time warps blind to what is actually happening all around them.

When was the last study done?  Is it available online?

This was just an academic exercise by students who were able to share their findings.  This was similar to when the Michigan students made a presentation several years ago.  Penn State, and Kent State also had students who performed similar academic exercises, but they weren't as widely publicized.

[Towntalk]

The problem is that ever since the mills closed, there have been literally dozens of studies done on what to do with the land and not one of those studies have been implemented. Are we to keep having more studies that will be written then tossed aside?

If we were to gather all those previous studies and select a committe of businessmen to glean out the best of the studies, perhaps we could at long last come up with one master plan that could be seen through to completion.

In the meanwhile, the land stands empty ... tax revinue from that land is lost ... and thousands of dollars have been wasted on endless studies. Are we going to have to wait 33 more years before someone finally comes forward with a doable plan that can at long last become a brick and morter reality?

Pipe dream after pipe dream after bloody pipe dream just doesn't cut it, but then there are those folks that go into almighty swoons over every new dream that comes down the pike.

It's like everything else that has been left to the dreamers in Youngstown. Private enterprise is turning this town around, yet the visionaries remain in their little time warps blind to what is actually happening all around them.

[iwasthere]

i attended this presentation and the study was based on what germany did with unused industrial lands. i give these stds high fives by showing ytown civic, political and the general public the insight to think outside the box with endless possibilities concerning ole industrial icons. these ideas canbe implemented by phases with public and private investments. if you want to have futher discussions some of the stds and professors might be at the maennerchor club tonight. friday.

[Towntalk]

One reason that comes to mind is the degree of industrial pollution in much of the land along the river. Also, don't forget that the west side portion of the river still has industrial facilities which leaves just the area from where Mill Creek enters the river to say where Crab Creek enters the river that we're talking about.

In the grand scheme of things that isn't much land, and if the old United facility is reused as has been reported, (and at this point it's still an if.) that would take a large chunk out of the equasion (area between the Marshall Street bridge and the Market street bridge). So what would be left? The area between the Market Street Bridge and Crab Creek.

The idea that you pose has been tossed around since at least 1990 and nothing has resulted, so why should we think that a magic wand will be waved and walla ... riverfront venues as far as the eye can see.