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[Youngstownshrimp]

Well, Billy I have to say from what you posted, that you are more advanced than many...you show humility and you cannot learn this but have to experience it.
I'm sure as we travel thru this chapter of energy production in Youngstown, we will all find what is good for Youngstown.

[Billy Mumphrey]

I'm just a simple person. I struggled in school. In today's world I guess I would be labeled as being somewhere on the autism spectrum. For the past 2 years I've been doing temporary and part-time work in various jobs.

[Towntalk]

There are many ... very many things that I do not like or approve of, but I am also mindful that in a country such as ours, I do not have the right to infringe on the rights of others, nor do I have the right to force my views on others under the color of law.

The anti crowd wants to strip all of us of our civil liberties, and put them in the hands of a few.

As the Vindicator put it, this so called bill of rights goes far beyond simply the fracking question, and would do violence to our civil liberties as expressed in the Constitutional Bill of Rights, and that can not be tolerated a single second.

Now there are those who would be comfortable living in a totalitarian state, but I am not one of them, and neither should you.

It wouldn' just stop with the drilling issue, but would extend to other things that these people happen to oppose.

Would you want strangers telling you what foods you can eat ... what clothing you can wear ... where you can live? The list of "anti's" is lengthly, but because we are dealing with a specific topic I won't go into any lengthy detail that would sidetrack us.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Billy humor me, out of curiosity, what line of work are you in and what education do you have?
This would go a long way in my understanding of your writings.

[Billy Mumphrey]

Like I wrote on the other topic, I have had the opportunity in my travels across Ohio and PA. to see and hear these fracking wells. The noise bothers me, the truck traffic is a pain to deal with, and the fear of a cement casing going bad scares me. I'm sorry if I am not 100 percent on this money train. If local communities now have no say, I would hope we begin to elect state representatives and senators who will give citizens the right to not have to be forced into land pooling, etc.

[Towntalk]

Billy: The anti-fracking folks in the so called Bill of Rights measure that they have put on the ballot are ignoring some very fundamental principals of law which leads us to ask what lawyer is advising them, because every lawyer knows that local communities can not enact laws that supersede state or federal laws or Constitutions ... this has been settled law since the founding of our country.

The State and Federal Constitutions are the final arbiters of all laws notwithstanding anything the private citizen may want, and the one and only recourse there is, is a Constitutional Amendment.

What these folks are asking for reach beyond the Constitution, negating many of it's provisions by taking away from us the very rights that are guaranteed to us in the Bill of Rights, and if it passes, you can bet that it will be challenged in both state and federal court and will be struck down.

As citizens, we should all be outraged at the frivolous disregard for the Constitution, and am reminded about how, at another time, and another place people were lulled into surrendering their constitutional right only to loose all their rights. We cannot allow this to happen.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Very simple answer to questions about forced pooling by energy companies, National Energy Interest folks.  If you use energy (NG,Electric,Sewer, Roads, Schools,Gasoline, Nuclear) you have NO right to stop the production of it.
If your acre is required for a unit of your entire neighbors, you cannot stop them from harvesting their minerals.  It is the same as that road in front of you house, eminent domain, you use it, you are a part of it.  Nothing to do if fracking is right or wrong, it is about hypocracy so to speak.  The Amish are an ancient example of it, they do not participate in government, they take nothing from government (as much as possible) so they provide no soldiers for government wars.  It is about substantial justice for all. 
The fractivist are the worse offenders, they love the $3 cost of local NG, but they decry how it is produced, hypocracy and profiting from the development.  And this is what the fight is about, the few radicals who will not accept the truth and are brainwashed to believe that perpetual motion exist.  For that matter, I bet Iwasthere, and the rest here who support the antifrackers cannot even explain what is energy and how it is produced and why we die as a civilization without it. 
So here it is again for the low information people, National Energy Interest for survival.
But we had this debate here before, many times.  The nays here can win the debate by simply leading us all.  Showing us by example cleaner energy, solar, wind, tidal, we all want pure energy without a footprint, but science cannot deliver.............yet.  Even so, the fractivist have no answers either.

[Towntalk]

Rick, some folks simply think that they are above the Constitution, both State and Federal, and nothing that even Constitutional experts say matters to them, and if they succeed here, there would be no stopping them and we would see a dictatorship of the environmentalists which would excees the wildest actions of the Communists.

Thankfully the State Attorney General will not sit back and allow this to happen. The same is true with the U. S. Attorney General. This grand scheme would negate so many Constitutional provisions that it can not be ignored.

[Rick Rowlands]

Thinking about this further I am puzzled by Billy's remark that I made a threat.  If this passes and if Billy drives a car within the city he will be in violation, and it is the duty and responsibility of any citizen to take action against criminals.  So Billy I guess is asking me to overlook his lawlessness and to permit him to flagrantly flaunt city law, especially a law that he may be supporting?  I simply am confused why anyone who would support this would consider its mere enforcement as a threat?

[Towntalk]

The U. S. Supreme Court would strike this charter ammendment down in a minute as would the State Supreme Court. Everything about it is Unconstitutional.

[Rick Rowlands]

Billy the answer to your question lies with an interpretation of state law.  The way to combat that law is on the state level where it actually would do some good.  Since Youngstown is already redlined for gas drilling there really sin't much of a threat here in the city, so if you really feel strongly about it become an activist for change on he state level.  But don't shoot our hometown in the foot in the process, especially when this amendment would do nothing to change that state law.


I happen to agree with you on the issue of unitization.  If a property is unitized against the will of the property owners those owners should bear no responsibility at all and should receive the royalties that the surrounding lease signers would receive.  Forcing someone to join the pool then making them financially responsible for the well is absolutely insane!

[Rick Rowlands]

I am simply trying to illustrate the fallacy of your support for this hair brained amendment by presenting an example of how this can be taken to an extreme, hoping that you see that not everything that looks good on its face is actually good when you dig deeper.

[Rick Rowlands]

As usual I am not just talking out of my ass.  Here is the provision that gives me the authority:
"b. Right to Clean Air. All residents, natural communities and ecosystems in The City of Youngstown possess a fundamental and inalienable right to breathe air untainted by toxins, carcinogens, particulates and other substances known to cause harm to health."

Evidence that auto exhaust is carcinogenic: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3429499?uid=3739840&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102108995681

And here is the authority to file suit against you:

"9. Any person, corporation, other entity that violates any prohibition of this Law shall be guilty of a summary offense and, upon conviction shall be sentenced to pay the maximum fine allowable under state law for that violation, and shall be imprisoned to the extent allowed by law. A separate offense shall arise for each day or portion  hereof in which a violation occurs and for each section of this Law found to be violated. Enforcement of this article may be initiated by the Youngstown Police Department, the Director of Public Safety, or other designee of City Council. Youngstown may also enforce this Law through an action in equity. In such an action, Youngstown shall be entitled to recover damages and all costs of litigation, including, without limitation, expert and attorney's fees.

10. Any City resident shall have the authority to enforce this Law through an action in equity. "

Don't think I can do it??    I can even put you in jail.  The word "shall" is included meaning that jail time is not an option but a requirement.  Can you see now just how dangerous this amendment is, and how dangerous it is to support something that you know absolutely nothing about just because you bought into the propaganda?

[Billy Mumphrey]

I have read all your posts, but no one has answered my original question: why do oil and gas companies have the right to pool my property for fracking if I do not agree? To Rick Rowlands...why are you threatening me? I don't even know you! Why are you so mean-spirited to new members?

[Rick Rowlands]

If this becomes law I think I may have some fun and move my legal residence to the city then find out who were the major proponents of this amendment are and sit outsideheir houses and as soon as I see them start their cars I will record it and file suits against them for violating my right to clean air.  Billy you will be on the list too, as wil be iwasthere.  Heck you don't even have to live here.  I'll find you and fine you!