Arsons And Wick Park - Monday, November 23

[Youngstownshrimp]

Allan, I thank you for the advise and it is well noted.  We are however just starting on the single family dwelling and not the fourplex.  Until we find or create a market for salvaged material, recycling will continue to be weak in the local market.  I tried to help the city with contacts, but Novotny, the Deconstruction Czar seems to be all talk and no action as can be seen by all his relative post.  He finds this site a poor taste to discuss public business. 

I did however stimulate the Amish woodworkers and secured a list of all their companies in Holmes county who maybe a market for salvaged wood.  Also, I stumbled on Ryan Miller the head of all the Ohio Restore's, he is interested in the possibility.  Again, I advised Novotny and he seems to have vanished with our tax dollars.

[AllanY2525]

Ron,

Don't forget to check out the hard wood flooring - oak flooring is very
expensive to buy from a lumber store... someone might be interested in buying
the used flooring, and running it through a small planer to render it ready to
use as replacement flooring for a re-hab project, or for installation in a home
that does not have hardwood floors.  If the wood is still in salvageable condition,
there must be several thousand square feet of it inside this building.

As long as the sub-floor underneath is still in good condition, the flooring can
be safely removed without compromising the structural integrity of the place.

Are any of the old pocket doors still inside the place?  Salvage these , if
any are still present - along with the tracks, rollers and moldings around
them.

These items are definitely sought after by home restorers (like myself) as
well as the yuppie-types who are having new homes built with an antique
motif to them.

They also sell pretty easily in the antiques market....


Also, the electrical heavy-up on this property was upgraded not too many
years ago, so you might want to locate all of the panels, etc and see if they
are worth saving.

When I was looking at buying the property a few years ago, I noticed that
the units had forced air, gas heat - are the furnaces worth salvaging?  A lot
of the older, forced-air units can be upgraded with newer heat-exchangers,
which raises their efficiency to a level that is acceptable by current standards.

Just a few ideas...


Allan

[Youngstownshrimp]

Oh, the sandstone foundation will be available after the demolition of the structure.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Nevel's Temple on Elm Street just secured a demolition permit for their structure on Park across from their parking lot.  We have just inspected the structure and will be salvaging the following material:

1.  8" baseboard trim                          2.  Antique door plates
3.  newer thermo pane windows           4.  clean 2x4's
4.  Antique radiators w/ designs           5.  steel, cast piping
6.  banisters                                     6. alluminum siding

*** If anyone is interested in material, post your request.

[Youngstownshrimp]

The demolition contractors can salvage because they have a demolition permit.
To do deconstruction, you need a demolition permit.

It's the same permit.

Hardly!

The deconstruction pilot projects done over the summer (2 houses) diverted about 165 tons of building materials from the landfill. At 50% of local retail, this material was valued at over $10,000. Most mature markets for salvaged building materials support prices at 75%-90% of retail, with some items valued above retail. (which would place the value of the deconstructed materials at nearly $20,000)

You know those large unfinished support beams in the basements of older homes? There are parts of the country where these sell at 2 and 3 times the new retail value of FINISHED dimensional lumber. Why? Because rough sawed wood at these dimensions are rarely made anymore. Many builders incorporate them into house designs as specialty items for aesthetic purposes. In many cases these beams are of old growth timber, and are of a quality and species that you literally cannot buy anymore. Run them through a planer and you have some expensive boards on your hands.

All those "scrap" 2x4s in the walls and ceilings can, at the very least, be thrown into a grinder and sold wholesale as mulch or bio fuel for $1,000 to $2,000 pretty easily.

Furthermore, the pilot projects required 40% more labor than traditional demolition, ie NEW JOBS.

With the groundwork laid out in market development and the adequate industry infrastructure in place, those with a little business savvy will be able to turn a profit from deconstruction.

Here's a tip:

NONPROFITS

Let's say a homeowner needs to demolish the house at a cost of about $3,000. To deconstruct the house, it might cost about $5,500. So why deconstruct? The materials can be donated for a tax deduction to a qualified nonprofit, like Habitat for Humanity. By law, the declared value of the donation must be the value of the materials NEW. So lets say that the value new of the material salvaged totals $20,000. Depending on your tax bracket, the resulting deduction will more than offset the costs, making deconstruction CHEAPER than the $3,000 demolition.  If you find yourself in a tax bracket of 27.5% or higher, you will realize a net PROFIT from deconstruction.

Steve,  Nevel's Temple met last wenesday and the congregation is ready to begin demolition/salvage. 

Do you have an entity that needs a write off?  Do you have sources who need recycled material?   

[Youngstownshrimp]

Another "flea" that needs to be flicked off.

[woozle]

Shrimp,
    I think this is one best left to the Professionals, Don't ya think?? with the history of our court system I don't think I want to wast any more tax dollars on any boondoggle that your involved in.. If I were you, I would stick to digging holes in the ground,, the shovel fit's so well in your hands..

[Youngstownshrimp]

Okay Steve, let's try your approach.

First step, we get the demolition permit (stating deconstruction) for 139 Park, so now we need an asbestos test, how much?  If asbestos found, which is a big unknown, can we revert back to basic demolition if abatement is unaffordable?

Second step, if no asbestos found, machinery, labor, workman's comp, dumping fees, site clearing, what should we budget and who will finance?  Note, we should be able to convince an investor, that we have a buyer for all the salvaged material and their financing will be paid back once structure is deconstructed, correct?

Third step, buyers and end users of material, who and how much do we get?

Fourth step, nonprofit group willing to accept donated material and entity needing a tax exemption?


If you can put all this together, I'm in.  Also, can I see a copy of the project costs of the two deconstruction projects you have done?

[Youngstownshrimp]

Westsider, thank you for confirming what I know, you also have established that we can produce the same results with salvaging without going thru the term "deconstruction".  Yes, as long as we stay away from friable asbestos we bypass the cost and health problems.  So we have in place the process to recycle now which is our goal.  In regards to 1000 Bryson, and 139 Park, we invite anyone interested in salvaging the material that has no possibility of having asbestos.  Trying to deconstruct the walls and ceilings is not cost effective anyway, we can just demo them.

The answer to your last question is that all demolition over a decade ago has gone away from the practice of burying the debris in the basement.  Only clean fill is allowed to be buried.

[northside lurker]

Last Friday, I talked with Bill D'Avignon about saving the woodwork, doors, etc. in the green house on Pennsylvania Ave.  He responded in a similar manner.  That, when the house is contracted for demolition, an arrangement could possibly be made for a group of volunteers to come in and remove/salvage the materials before the house is torn down.  I would have to assume that this would only be OK if the demo contractor didn't want this stuff first?

To avoid disturbing any asbestos, the salvaging would have to stay on the surface of things: moldings, trim, doors, wood floors, etc.  In places like kitchens and bathrooms, you would also have to be careful of the floors in addition to walls and ceilings, because some vinyl floor tiles were made with asbestos.  Also, one would have to be careful not to disturb the plaster too much while removing the trim.  I guess this is why most demo contractors don't think it's cost effective; it requires too much care?

Steve would know much better than I, but, based on the lecture about deconstruction last spring at the Ohio One Building, deconstruction is more than just saving woodwork and hardware.  Deconstruction is also about saving the old building materials like joists, sheathing, bricks, shingles (for recycling) etc.  Is there a market for that kind of material? (I know bricks could be desirable)

Finally, here is a question for anyone who knows.  In many cases in Youngstown, when a house is demolished, it is just knocked down and compacted into the basement cavity, and covered over with dirt.  So, after this rubble (including asbestos pipe wrap, etc.) has been buried for a number of years, is it safe to dig up?  Has the asbestos been stabilized by mixing with earth?  Or, are most of these vacant lots now considered brown fields, which could hinder development in the future?

Wow, this post kinda jumped all over the place...

[Youngstownshrimp]

Hmmm....,  I just spoke with an old demolition contractor I know and used in the city.  He told me that the normal practice in demolition included salvage rights.  So if the church secured a demo permit and initially salvaged everything that did not disturb what can be assumed has asbestos, falls under the demolition permit.  What can be salvaged without disturbing possible asbestos material?  Fixtures, hardware, trim, doors, hardwood floors, trusses, anything that does not make asbestos friable if present. 

It appears the only difference between salvaging and deconstruction is the permits.  The walls and ceilings for the most part are what will become friable if deconstructed and according to the deconstruction experts I listened to, they are the most tedious and less cost effective to mess around with.  So the church can just demo them and haul away.  The brick will also be available when the remnants are demo'd.

[AllanY2525]

I had my apartment building tested for asbestos prior to removing every ceiling inside
the entire building (water damage from the bad roof that was on the place).  The
walls tested at less than 5% asbestos content, the ceilings tested at just under 7%.

The entire testing and lab costs came in at around $250.00

All this means is that we had to wear respirators while taking down the ceilings, and
keep everything sprayed down with water during demolition in order to keep the fibers
from becoming airborne.  We also wore disposable clothing over our work clothes, which
was taken off and trashed at the end of the day.

Asbestos, if not inhaled into the lungs, is harmless to the rest of the human body.
It is a mineral, mined out of the earth - and once returned to the earth (ie: landfill)
it is rendered totally harmless.  It does not contaminate ground water, etc in and of itself.
To this day, brake pads and shoes for our cars and trucks are still made of the stuff.

I would venture to say that, if the property is properly deconstructed and the materials
carefully salvaged and then sold off, then the church should be able to make a profit
on the deconstruction - despite the costs of abating the asbestos.

The oak flooring alone is worth a considerable amount of money - believe me!  I am
in the process of replacing oak woodwork in the house I am working on and it costs a TON
of money. The cost of replacing all of the downstairs floors alone in this house would be
several thousand dollars, if I were to use new 3/4" tongue-and-groove oak to do it.

The floor boards from these row houses could be carefully removed (cut the nails
from underneath with a special oscillating saw) de-nail them, run them through a planing mill
and voila!  You now have recycled, tongue-and-groove, solid hardwood flooring material with
a freshly milled, ready to sand and finish surface on it.

This flooring could be sold to someone at a nice profit - many rooms worth.  Enough to do one
or two entire houses with - either a restoration on an older home, or a nice "added touch" to
a newly-constructed one...the kind of amenity that most of us could not afford these days, were
we to build a new home.

There were some pocket doors in the row houses back when I was looking to buy them - if these
are still present, they could be stripped and re-finished and sold.  Pocket doors are a commodity
in the architectural antiquities markets, as are old woodwork pieces (door frames, window frames,
molding, etc).

The church should go ahead and spend the couple hundred bucks and get the inspection.
The fact that the row houses at 1000 Bryson (corner of Park Ave) have forced air gas heat
instead of steam is a good thing - less to worry about.

I toured these row houses a couple years ago because I was interested in buying them and
rehabbing them.  I ended up buying other property instead because of some old "Mark Mallen" liens
and encumberances on the deed to the place, which the former owner was unable or unwilling to
get cleared prior to the sale to me.  I even had an ernest deposit on the place.

If the church were to check around and get some bids, they could probably find an outfit willing
to do the asbestos abatement at a reasonable cost - the plaster on the walls and ceilings is the
main concern.  The roof on the building has been replaced numerous times, so I doubt that there is
any significant amount of asbestos in the roofing materials....the original roof was most likely made
of gray slate.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Steve, you have been studying alot, this is good.  Let's take this to the real world, 139 Park, if we decide to deconstruct and take a gamble that there is no friable asbestos.  If our bet was wrong and there is asbestos that requires $5000 to abate, now we are on the hook to get the structure abated.  My advise to the owners, is not to take this chance and hire Mckinley to demolish the structure for $2000, I have done this many times, clean, simple and no liability.  Sadly, this is the wrong way, but the only way out for an investor.

[Shar]

Generally when houses are deconstructed the materials that are salvaged in the deconstruction are sold.  If the materials in the house in question are worth $3,000 or more then you are still better off doing the deconstruction.   Those materials do not end up in a landfill and someone else will have the opportunity to use them. 

[Rick Rowlands]

The unintended consequences of environmental regulation.  Whats the Green party's response to this I wonder?