Ron and Rick Please Help

[Youngstownshrimp]

I believe there is some truth to the rapid decline curve of shale wells.   Very shortly I predict that oil will shoot up again in value.  As new shale wells are cancelled  , the drop off high production of these wells may in short order decrease oil production worldwide causing prices to skyrocket.
does this theory place me in the camp of the Anti Frackers dogma?  No.  the facts remain that fracking only releases 20% of the minerals in shale. Shale will for many decades continue to be harvested with new technology to supply man's interim needs of energy until the return to pure gravity.

[Rick Rowlands]

Actually we do not have a national grid. We have three grids or interconnetions.  There are four major interconnections in North America (the Western Interconnection, the Eastern Interconnection, the Quebec Interconnection and the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) grid.  Some power is transferred between the grids but not much, and where those transfers happen the AC is converted to DC then reinverted to AC again because the three grids are not synchronized with each other. 

[AllanY2525]

The blades on the larger turbines are large enough that they need not spin very fast.  A set
of gears (kinda like a car transmission) is used to, turn the generators at the right speed.
Its not about the speed of the blades - it's how much torque (twisting or turning power)
they produce - the unit of measure is called "pound/feet of torque".  The larger ones turn at
less than 200 RPM at full output,  if I remember it right.

Don't quote me here, cause I read it a long time ago, but the larger turbines produce
power up to 10 megawatts ( ten million watts) - per turbine.  That's enough to run a the
residential buildings for a small town.  As to how much electricity it takes to light up
one block, I couldn't guess that one - depends on how heavy each customers usage
is on that hypothetical block.  Residential meters measure out cumption in terms of
"Kilowatt hours". Turbines produce "megawatt hours" worth of power, each.  1 megawatt
is equal to 1,000 kilowatt hours

If you search on Google with the phrase "wind turbine maximum output" some of
the results break things down really well.

There are plenty of windy areas in other areas of the country - put the turbines there, where
they are suited to those locations.  The desert southwest has hundreds if thousands of square miles
Of arid, sun-drenched empty land.  Perfect place for solar electric panels.  Again, their remote
location would not matter had people would not have to look at them in urban areas, etc.

[Towntalk]

If the local wind average is 5 to 10 MPH based on the National Weather Service that will not be turning those blades at any appreciable speed so how many wind turbans will be needed for powering one block of homes or businesses?

[AllanY2525]

The turbines need not be in Youngstown....are there electric generator plants in every city that has
electricity?  No, of course not.  They are located in areas that are best suited to each type of plant.,
and the power is fed into the power grid.  Transmission lines take the power to its final destination.

The same principle can be applied to turbines and solar cells ie: Put them where there IS adequate
wind and sun, feed their output into the power grid.  The same high voltage transmission lines
that feed us power from remote power plants deliver the electricity wherever it is needed.

In Germany, there are electric companies that actually PAY customers who have excess power
from their solar power setups - and the power is sold  back to the electric company, and their
electric bill is credited for the kilowatt hours put into the grid.  It's kind of like a bank account
for electricity - customers can make deposits and withdrawals, as needed.

When there is not enough sun, customers use power from the power company and the system
works.  Wind and Solar power cannot replace generator plants - they supplement them,
reducing the amount of emissions, etc.  There are plenty of areas in the US that have lots of
sun and wind - and we have a national power grid and delivery system, whether the
customer is 100 feet from the power source, or many miles away, the infrastructure to deliver
that electricity already exists.

[Towntalk]

Basicly that was what my friend was trying to explain to me Rick, but your explanation was better and I thank both you and Ron, and wish both of you a prosperous New Year.

[Rick Rowlands]

At the Youngstown Steel Heritage Museum we have five 200 watt solar panels which charge four deep cycle batteries.  The batteries feed an inverter and we have a 20 amp 120 VAC line that runs into the museum.   As long as we get some sunlight during the day the system can keep up with the load, which is just lighting mainly with a couple of power tools from time to time.   I can monitor the entire system and know how much power is going in, how much is going out and what the state of charge on the batteries is.  This system works for me because my power needs occur during the day when the sun is out.

For a house, the majority of electrical demand occurs at night when the sun is not shining.  And the loads on the grid for housing peak in early evening, then drop off overnight, peak again in the morning then drop somewhat during the day.  Solar generation occurs only during daylight hours and some days peaks between 10 am and 2 pm and on other days you get nothing at all.   So how do you bridge the gap between a known, reoccurring load cycle and the whims of the weather?  Basically you can't.

There is no way that any solar or wind installation can replace even one base load power plant. Cannot happen.  Period.  All that solar and wind power does is to soften the demand peaks, but not knowing when it will do it, you can't really depend on it. 

Environmentalists and alternative power proponents are not known for being able to think deeply about the reality of alternative power.  Actually, the ability to think isn't a trait that most Americans now have.  So many people want alternative power to work, and they wish it so much that they delude themselves into thinking that it has a chance of working.  But it really can't.  The math just doesn't add up. 

I once did an analysis on how many windmills of the type that Allan mentioned in Somerset would be needed to replace the Sammis coal fired plant on the Ohio River in Stratton, OH.  It would take around 2,700 windmills to replace Sammis, and only if those windmills ran at capacity continuously.   And then there are six more fossil and nuclear plants along the Ohio within a 100 miles.  So, since we all know that windmills do not run at capacity all the time, and that there is not room for tens of thousands of windmills, we must conclude that wind power is NOT a viable alternative.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Towntalk, all I have to offer is that as allan stated economics right now and technology cannot produce enough energy mankind needs today. However we all are at a historic moment in time wherein a global fight and shift.from heavy oil to light oil and then to cleaner natural gas is in play.  Heavy crude will first go the way of coal,then once light oil is exhausted.  Clean natural gas is the future.  Gravity will one day save the earth.

[Towntalk]

General Motors installed several hundred solar panels recently, yet those panels can not power the plant itself, but only supplies enough power to run the office. How many solar panels would it take to power a city of 80,000 people 24/7/365? Again how many wind turbans would be required to supply power to the city when the average wind speed for our area, according to the National Weather Service is from 10 to 15 mph? Geothermal? Certainly it would be ideal in Yellowstone National Park, but how much power could it supply a city the size of Youngstown.
The environmentalists want America to be powered 100 percent by solar, wind and geothermal energy period. To accomplish this America would have to lose all it's heavy industries, our hospitals would have major problems operating since they need a very large and reliable energy source 24/7/365.
If you were to take all three alternative energy sources and put them into operation in Youngstown erecting wind turbans on every single empty lot and mandating that every property owner would be required to install solar panels on all their buildings or forfit the property, and do it at their own expense, you still would not be able to generate the amount of power that is currently needed.
EVEN IF YOU STILL CONTINUED TO USE THE ENERGY PROVIDED BY FIRST ENERGY, THE COSTS OF ERECTING THE WIND TURBANS AND MAINTAINING THEM; THE COSTS OF THE SOLAR PANELS, AND ALL THE EQUIPMENT THAT GOES WITH THEM, AND INSTALLING AND MAINTAINING THE GEOTHERMAL EQUIPMENT WOULD NOT REDUCE THE END COST TO THE CONSUMER.
Where I use to live on the North Side, my average electric bill was $40 to $50. Where I live now, my average electric bill is between $25 and $30. Just a few minor changes did the trick.

[AllanY2525]

Wind and solar power cannot, as yet, supply all of our power needs - that being said, it
still behooves us as a nation to have multiple sources of power feeding into the power
Grid.

There are a set of wind turbines along the sidevof the PA turnpike that do quite well....but
location has everything to do with feasibility with these, of course.  Solar powered lighting
IS feasible, given the advances in lighting technology in recent years - especially LED
based lighting, as it consumes VERY little power compared with the old incandescent bulbs.

[Towntalk]

 Ron and Rick:

I am no expert on much of anything, and as I grow older, my ability to comprehend all this new fangled technology stuff is seriously lacking, so when my friend explained to me why all these new fangled "environmental friendly" things such as wind mills and solar panels are not economically practical here in the Mahoning Valley, much of his explanation slid by me like an old lady trying to navigate walking down a sidewalk that is nothing but one long sheet of ice.

As usual, he made perfect sense, and I know that you both would agree with him 100%.

He pointed out how many solar panels that Lordstown installed vs. how much actual energy they will produce, and he also pointed out how much wind it would take to generate power vs. the average daily wind speed as reported by the weather news on TV, and concluded that here neither solar nor wind would produce enough energy to all our homes and businesses on a daily basis 365/24/7.

Hopefully you could reduce all that technical stuff so that this old lady could understand it, and I humbly thank you.