Mahoning Valley Forum

Although I live near the Mahoning river and know the land around the river, I have never been in the water.  Recently my nephew who bought a home in the City pushed me to buy a kayak and accessories with him, with the intent of navigating the river.  Today, I got a call from him and he said today was the day, I tried my best to get out of it, but he would not take no for an answer.  So we launched at the water works and I must say the river was so serene and paddling under the iron bridges and viewing Youngstown from the water was unbelievable!  What a gem we have in the City and the river is where it all started by the founders.  And my nephew was pulling fish up with every cast. 

Educated planners tell us that urban renewal begins at the water where most communities began.  Why are our leaders not focusing on the river?  In Poland our community group built a theater and 30' high stairway on the Yellow creek.  During the summers, movies are shown on the bridge wall and jazz concerts bring crowds into the village.  And Yellow creek is not even navigable.  I predict an innovator will come forth one day and develop the river into a recreation destination point, lets hope.

Years ago I took a few canoe trips on the Mahoning River through downtown Youngstown.  Most of the time you couldn't see any of the nearby buildings.  It was almost as though you were traveling on a river in a wilderness area.   I know I took a few photographs at that time but have not been able to locate them.  Did you take any pictures?

Jay, I did not take any pictures, but I should have.  Yes, you get the wilderness scene on the river.  What I liked with nature, you also get the iron bridges, large cut stone foundations, arched tunnels and I even noticed a stone wall hand built on the edge of the river.  This is unique and it kind of reminded me a little about that history channel series "100 days after people".  Come to think of it, if the history channel invested in generating computer enhancements, Youngstown has it in real time on the river, someone should call the history channel.

I am quite envious Ron.  I have wanted to do that for a long time!  Is the river only navigable by Kayak or could a small boat or pontoon boat make the trip between the Ohio Works dam and YS&T Campbell Works dam?

Could you imagine an entrepreneur doing river tours on that section of the Mahoning? 

As I remember, it would be a little difficult using a small boat on the section of the river that you mentioned.  There are several shallow spots and the remnants of a small dam near Anthony's On The River.  Your passage would also depend on the amount of water flowing on the day of your trip.  It would be easier to travel down stream an any given day.

That dam near Anthony's On The River is what's left of the old Baldwin Flour Mill Dam.

I would love to see pictures of the river especially where Mill Creek flows into the Mahoning.

As for boats in the river, here's a picture of a boat that chugged up and down the river.

Jay hit on a good idea about tours up and down the river.

Yes, it is so good of Jay to come up with that good idea!  I sure wish I had thought of that!

A source of some Mahoning River technical data

waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?03098600 (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?03098600)

I don't know what all that data means, but wouldn't it be great of someone couldn't revive the Mahoning Pleasure Boat Company and rent out boats on the river?

What that data means is that the government says there is water flowing down the Mahoning river!

I don't want to rent out pleasure boats, I want to operate boat tours on the river!   

My bet would be on a "Mahoning River Kayak Assn." to generate interest and defray any significant start up cost.  Once activity is noticed demand may follow.  A cottage industry may be born with nautical supplies being offered let's say by a small store in the B&O station, better yet, used fishing gear, canoes,kayaks,bait, snacks and liquids.  Wallmart cannot compete with flea market poles, tackle, etc.  Savvy entrepreneurs may learn the best way to navigate the river as it is and offer guide services to navigate down to Struthers, Lowellville or even to PA.

Enterprise start ups are successful when the innovator does not jump into debt but rather grows the business with its own water.  If an assn. is set up it can pool its members smaller investments and create critical mass right away.  If we wait for local government to lead the charge, they will first set up a bloated non profit, wait for stimulus grant money, ask for the river to be dredged and end up the same place we are in now, dying.  This is how commerce works, like minded people see a need and an opportunity and pool together to limit the risk.  Not to mention busting your ass.  The MVOC should be doing this and create real production instead of waiting for Uncle Sam to print money.

Canoe City used to rent canoes on the Mahoning River in Leavittsburg.  Because of a small dam, one could travel the impounded water from Leavittsburg to Newton Falls.  I'm not sure if the business is still operating.

Using Spring Commons as a starting point how far up and how far doen the river could boats go?

Lets say that a boat was launched just below Baldwin Dam or what's left of it, how far down the river could it go, and lets say that another boat was launched above Baldwin Dam, how far up the river could it go?

I'm basing my response on my recollection from the canoe trip.

North of the Baldwin Dam there is a shallow area near West Avenue.

South of the Baldwin Dam there is another shallow area between the Market Street Bridge and the South Avenue Bridge.

Would the removal of what is left of Baldwin's Dam help increase the flow of the river? As it is, it serves no purpose.

I took a trip back to my home town and enjoyed the river which is wider and deeper than the Mahoning. It's the West Branch of the Susquehanna River. The town has several spots along the river where there are park benches.

Part of the adventure of kayaking is to paddle when water affords it and carrying your kayak when water is not navigable.  This is why many newer kayaks are light weight and shorter.  Remember the old outdoor movies of canoe treks, they operated the same way, the pioneers adopted the Indian bark canoes to carry over land when need, but they kept focus on the destination.  This can be true with the Mahoning river, my nephew has researched aerial maps zooming in on the unnavigable portions of the river with the plan of overland travel as we move down river.

The removal of what's left of the Baldwin Dam would cause the water level northward to drop.  The shallow area near West Avenue would be longer and there wouldn't be as much water in the river next to the B&O Station.

Rick, I am flattered.  I am only trying to emulate your "can do" approach.  Before we develop the river as a recreation destination, I think we need to organize and write a grant.  Now, we can push our representatives to get stimulus money from uncle Sam so we can dredge and build new dams to hold more water.  And we can ask the City to apply for green space money so all the tax delinquent land along the river can go into various landbanks because they can interest developers waiting for this moment.  Developers will rush in and pour millions of dollars into this idea. How about another nonprofit river landbank to gather all this river land so that Trump or Cafaro can rush in and develop this new concept.  You know the problem is not the availability of eager investors to plop down big money, the problem here is we need to get the land in any one landbank and "they will come."

Please excuse the interruption of this thread.  Recently I have received complaint about the antagonistic nature of some posts. This thread was cited. I am asking for your opinions.  I will also add a poll. Unfortunately the most recent complaint came in the form of an email and did not specifically give any sentence but did imply that this was the offending passage.  Please take the time to answer or vote in the poll.  Thank you.

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on August 07, 2010, 03:27:33 AM
Enterprise start ups are successful when the innovator does not jump into debt but rather grows the business with its own water.  If an assn. is set up it can pool its members smaller investments and create critical mass right away.  If we wait for local government to lead the charge, they will first set up a bloated non profit, wait for stimulus grant money, ask for the river to be dredged and end up the same place we are in now, dying.  This is how commerce works, like minded people see a need and an opportunity and pool together to limit the risk.  Not to mention busting your ass.  The MVOC should be doing this and create real production instead of waiting for Uncle Sam to print money.

Is this for real?

Of all the things that have been said on this forum this is hardly offensive.  If it is offensive, it is a prime example of just how ingrained the entitlement mentality has become in this country, to all of our detriments. Starting a business by not going into debt, and doing it without the need for the confiscated wealth of your fellow citizens used to be one of the hallmarks of the United States, and one of the very reasons why this nation achieved greatness. 

I personally find it offensive that the Forum Manager is even taking seriously a complaint about this paragraph.

Quote from: Why?Town on August 09, 2010, 08:21:04 PM
Is this for real?

Yes, unfortunately. Seems weird  -  I understand.   I don't see the issue with Shrimp's posts to the thread,   but want to see if I am in the minority. Trust me please.  It is important that this be done. I have not and will not vote.

If only the "yes" votes would elaborate?

I try to not pay much attention to Shrimps posts because of exactly what he does in this thread.  Below is the quote of his statement on August 7 stating that we should not wait for the government but rather charge ahead and be savvy entrepreneurs.  By today, the second quote below, he has done a complete turnaround and wants to write grants and entice Donald Trump to invest.  I suspect that whoever complained about this thread was complaining about the sarcastiic poke at the land banks that he posted today.  I have no idea. just my two cents. 

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on August 07, 2010, 03:27:33 AM
My bet would be on a "Mahoning River Kayak Assn." to generate interest and defray any significant start up cost.  Once activity is noticed demand may follow.  A cottage industry may be born with nautical supplies being offered let's say by a small store in the B&O station, better yet, used fishing gear, canoes,kayaks,bait, snacks and liquids.  Wallmart cannot compete with flea market poles, tackle, etc.  Savvy entrepreneurs may learn the best way to navigate the river as it is and offer guide services to navigate down to Struthers, Lowellville or even to PA.

Enterprise start ups are successful when the innovator does not jump into debt but rather grows the business with its own water.  If an assn. is set up it can pool its members smaller investments and create critical mass right away.  If we wait for local government to lead the charge, they will first set up a bloated non profit, wait for stimulus grant money, ask for the river to be dredged and end up the same place we are in now, dying.  This is how commerce works, like minded people see a need and an opportunity and pool together to limit the risk.  Not to mention busting your ass.  The MVOC should be doing this and create real production instead of waiting for Uncle Sam to print money.

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on August 09, 2010, 09:48:01 AM
Rick, I am flattered.  I am only trying to emulate your "can do" approach.  Before we develop the river as a recreation destination, I think we need to organize and write a grant.  Now, we can push our representatives to get stimulus money from uncle Sam so we can dredge and build new dams to hold more water.  And we can ask the City to apply for green space money so all the tax delinquent land along the river can go into various landbanks because they can interest developers waiting for this moment.  Developers will rush in and pour millions of dollars into this idea. How about another nonprofit river landbank to gather all this river land so that Trump or Cafaro can rush in and develop this new concept.  You know the problem is not the availability of eager investors to plop down big money, the problem here is we need to get the land in any one landbank and "they will come."

I recognized Ron's latest post as being in jest, but it has a great deal of truth to it.  I have read articles about attempts to use government money to dredge the Mahoning, and I am sure that someone over at Eastgate or some other EDA wished that the engineering had been done so that project could be considered shovel ready. Putting tax delinquent properties in landbanks is already in effect in Youngstown, and the idea that a land bank is a key to attracting new investment is also believed by some.  What he says does sound plausible because it is identical to the life cycle of many of the new ideas floated about in Youngstown.   

Well I guess it wasn't just one passage that is offending? Please see the entire thread.

Thank you for your responses.  My apologies for hijacking the thread with the poll and "survey"  Won't happen again.
BTW - no one can see how a person votes in the polls.

I was hoping this post would result in the creation of a concerted effort to ramp up recreation on the river but I now see that 30% would rather take issue with my opinion of the problems in Youngstown.  What some interpret as offensive is reverse psychology so we may see the wrong approach of OUR ways in depending on handouts before we begin any enterprising project.  As Rick stated for Years WE have been conversing on how to change Youngstown with the approach of depending on the government lets say to clean up the river, if WE do nothing, it will continue this way.  Fortunately in this forum it seems that the majority do not zero in on ME but rather the truth that is being told.

Shrimp - I have been contacted regarding antagonism on your part with a request to remove you from these forums. This thread was cited as an example.  I hijacked the thread to see if anyone else thought it to be antagonistic. Although it is difficult to get a true consensus (due to possible multiple identities)  the NOs seem to be in the majority. Other than Shar outlining some discrepancy on your posts there have been no other comments outlining how this thread is antagonistic.

To be antagonistic is to be in active opposition to another person or idea.  Heck we are all antagonistic.  Conservatives oppose the ideas of liberals, liberals oppose the ideas of conservatives.  It can be said that one half of this country is antagonistic toward the other half.  There is nothing wrong with being antagonistic.  The opposite is to acquiesce to anyone with a differing opinion, and this forum would just turn into a mutual admiration society.

I think what should be guarded against is not antagonism but incivility, namecalling, derogatory remarks, etc. We can be antagonistic all day long but if its done in a manner that respects your opponent then we both walk away without bruised feelings.

I've been trying to reply to this post for the last couple days, but haven't had the time to do so.

Rick, you've helped make my reply simpler.  Shrimp's posts rarely contain the respect for opposing viewpoints that you suggest in your post. (though, I think you were referring someone else entirely...)  His post above, reply 17, (IMO) illustrates his disdain, and lack of respect for those who don't share his views.



BTW, to help make my reply a little bit on topic... A friend/coworker went kayaking on the Mahoning River in June.  They put in at Mill Creek, and, I believe, they went as far as Lowelville.  He has pictures, but I think they're only on Facebook. (I'll ask him about them tomorrow)

Westsider,  you are correct, I have no respect and total disdain for those who are sinking our great country that I have served (US NAVY).  When I see parasites living off the government (57% of Youngstown) and politicians not leading but solidifying their power base, upstart nonprofits who are only geared towards making high paying jobs for themselves, most of us Americans (check the polls) truly have disdain and no respect for them.