On Saturday, November 8, All Aboard Ohio is unveiling its Fix-It-First plan for Ohio railroads. The proposal includes components involving train station improvements and rail line acquisition in Youngstown.
wonderful!
The initial portion of this proposal call for work to be done at the existing B&O Station to make it ready for conventional rail service. At some point in the future, a new Youngstown Passenger Train Station is proposed for the area between the Market Street Bridge and the Chevrolet Centre.
Not bad for a "dying" area.
There is absolutely no reason for building a new passenger station when the current one is sufficient, unless Amtrak is considering moving their train from the 79 MPH B&O mainline over to the 25 MPH NS Youngstown Secondary, which is the track which runs along the Chevy Center. A railroad track is not just a railroad track!
Moving the passenger train station is part of the second phase. The Amtrak train would leave the CSX line in the area of West Avenue and then reconnect to the CSX line near Center Street.
The plan also calls for the acquisition of several other local abandoned rail lines. The groundwork is being laid for a separate higher speed rail line through Youngstown.
Why do we even talk about wasting our tax dollars on a new train station when we don't even have train service in our area right now? It is like talking about a new terminal at the Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport when they only have 2 flights a week!
IF we get high speed train service, I'd support a new train station because I doubt the B&O could handle it.
Question: Has Amtrak actually made any public statement about these plans, and if so, who from Amtrak made it, and where can that statement be found?
I'm all for having rail passanger service, but given Amtrak's past experiences with train service here, and the absence of official documentation from Amtrak, it should be stressed that this is the hope of people not directly related to the railroad, and no indication that they are even considering it.
We also know from past experience that for Amtrak to use CSX trackage would severely limit the number of trains that come through the area which means that new tracks would have to be laid, and is Amtrak in any financial position to make that kind of investment? Would Amtrak make a major capitol investment like that when it would only use that trackage fewer than five times a day?
Is the federal government in any position to fund track laying projects?
Setting aside any and all environmental considerations, there are literally tons of infrastructure that are more pressing than a rail track project to service the Youngstown area given ... highways ... bridges ... dams projects that have been underfunded for years to name three.
The B&O building is now privately owned. At best, only a fraction of the building was available for use as a passenger station. That same space has now been converted into offices.
The former location of the Salvation Army Building on Mahoning Avenue has some potential for use in the short term.
I'm all for the railroads!!!!!!!!!!
What about the old Erie Terminal Building? It was after all a railroad station to begin with, and also what about the Leader building which was the Erie Freight Station to begin with?
Not familiar with either of those buildings, got pictures?
Isn't the Erie Terminal building also privately owned? Eventually,.. it is to be converted into apartments. The tax credits have already been approved.
I might have linked to this site before, but look at the first two articles on the last page of the thread (page 36) might be of some interest:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1414.1050.html
Here's another information-packed thread about possible Cleveland-Youngstown-Pittsburgh rail service.
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15885.0.html
Yes it is BUT as I understand, the Erie building is to be mixed use.
As to the Leader Terminal building, it is the large building behind Number 1 Fire Station, between Fifth and Belmont Avenue.
As I said, it was built to handle Erie RR Freight, and had some small businesses in it.
By taking one section of the building and converting it into a passanger station, it could undergo a rebirth by converting other parts of the building into units for small businesses.
The RR right of way allowed for several tracks and linked to the mainline just east of Andrews Avenue. The overhead track bridge just off E. Federal at Andrews Avenue was for the Erie tracks.
The only disadvantage would be that there would be RR crossings at Fifth Avenue, Hazel Street and Wick Avenue again, but the advantages would be that the station would be able to stay open 24/7 and wouldn't have to compete with special events at the B&O, and another advantage would be that the Leader could also be home base for Independent Cab.
If the Youngstown Incubator were involved, the remaining portions of the building could be used for some of the businesses it is working with.
Has anyone ever written a book on the history of railroads - freight, passenger, industrials, etc. - in and around Youngstown and the MV ?
What is the status of the former PRR depot at 555 MLK Blvd ? It was built in 1948 but the Pennsy discontinued passenger service from Cleveland to Youngstown in 1964. Does it still exist ? What business if any occupies the building ?
Thanks,
Tom
Frangos owns the Erie building, and according to his website the first floor is being marketed for small business's and the second through sixth floors are to be housing. According to the Vindicator state and federal grants have already been approved for this project.
B.J. Allen owns the former PRR passanger station building as part of his fireworks business.
I hate to break it to you guys and gals but at some point the free ride on money created from thin air will end, and absolutely stupid projects such as rebuilding miles of trackage to bring rail passenger service into Youngstown will have to meet with reality. I remember when we had passenger sevice and only a handful ever used it. Rail service is an idea for growing cities that have congestion problems, not shrinking cities. Remember one of the basic tenets of Youngstown 2010.
We don't need rail service to Youngstown. We don't need air service to Youngstown. We really don't. What we need are to PAVE A FEW DAMN ROADS!!!!!!!!! I can't even drive through Youngstown anymore. I got two flat tires in six months just driving through town, and you all want to talk about grandiose boondoggles such as relaying the Erie to the Terminal building. Get a grip on reality people.
Rick, as I understand it, rail service to Youngstown is just part of a larger project. Are you suggesting that Youngstown should be bypassed in creating rail service between Cleveland and Pittsburgh?
Did you look at the threads I linked to on UrbanOhio that I linked to on the previous page? What is your take on their discussion? It seems to me that the biggest hurdle would be connecting the CSX and N-S lines in Ravenna.
Perhaps we can market ourselves as a bedroom community for both Pittsburgh and Cleveland. I know of MANY people that now commute to both cities.
The city itself is downsizing but the suburbs are also part of this community.
If we have mass transit, commuting would be less of an issue.
Many years ago, there WAS a passenger terminal. It was right on the curve accross from the old Vivo Scrap yard. The place was actually beautiful. Someone tore it down. When I was a child, we used to get on the Pittsburg & Lake Erie Railroad train and ride it to Pittsburgh. It's amazing at how quickly people decide to tear something down and then 30 years later wish that it was still there. My father was a Conductor on the P&LE Railroad.....they went out of business right after Youngstown Sheet & Tube did...I worked for both of them.
That station started out its life as the passanger station for the Lake Central & Michigan Rail Road and later the New York Central.
It was a beautiful station.
It was also at one time headquarters for the local model railroad club.
Does anyone happen to have any photos of this building, especially interior shots?
How many of you have memories of ever riding on a steam powered train before they were taken out of service, excursion train rides don't count so in answering you will age yourself.
I can remember one ride when my Grandmother took me on a trip to visit my Aunt. That was back in the 1940's and the railroad was the Pennsylvania RR.
On my Webshots site I have started posting photos of railroads that serviced Youngstown and started with the New York Central RR. Enjoy.
http://community.webshots.com/user/ladynews500
I would love to be able to take a commuter train to Cleveland, Akron or Pittsburgh.
I'm a full time student at YSU. When I finish my degree, I plan to go to law school or grad school. Obviously, YSU doesn't have a law school and also doesn't offer a masters or PHD in my field of study. The closest cities that have facilities that meet my educational goals are in Cleveland, Akron and Pittsburgh.
I'm dreading the long commute. I don't know how I will be in class several hours a day, be in my car several more hours a day and still find time to study while taking care of 3 children and working part time. But, it has to be done for my family's future, so I'll do it.
Would make my life a heck of a lot easier in a few years, if I could commute to school by train, rather than drive. I would save a ton of money on transportation costs and be able to use the commute time to study or, God forbid, actually RELAX. :-)
Thought I agree that this won't solve all of our problems, I can already see how it would make a tremendous difference in my life. I'm sure there are others out there in similar situations.
It also might encourage more people to continue to live in the area. There are many people out there who can't find jobs in their chosen fields and must work out of town. I'm sure they eventually get sick of the commute and move closer to their jobs. I would love to be able to enjoy the affordability of Youngstown, even if I had to commute to work/school by train. Low cost of living + higher wages of another city= more money to put into the local economy.
I just created an album for the Erie RR, and have a photo of the Leader Terminal Building which was the freight station for both the Erie RR and the P&LE RR. along with a map to help locate it.
Westsider, the route for the passenger service would be the NS from downtown Cleveland on the former PRR to Ravenna. Then crossover to the CSX ex B&0 mainline to run through Youngstown to New Castle (Mahoningtown) then take an existing crossover back to the NS Youngstown Line to Rochester, then run on the NS former PRR Mainline to Pittsburgh Union Station. The logical place to use for a station is the B&O station as had been done in the past. The part that I object to is the idea of reusing the Erie terminal building or bringing the passenger train back over the Mahoning to run on the northeast side of the river to bring it near the Chevy Center.
Putting in the connection at Ravenna would be childsplay compared to the cost of relocating the trackage through Youngstown.
The new station near the Chevrolet center is proposed "sometime in the future," and the idea of using the Erie Terminal building instead was only proposed in this thread.
Again, I don't know very much about this. But I'm guessing that the new station being proposed would be built to service a new high speed rail line that also doesn't exist yet.
Question:
One of the drawbacks about the B&O has been the fact that service has historically been limited since Conrail controls the tracks resulting in strange hours that Amtrack was able to run trains through Youngstown.
Given the economic conditions, would it be possable for new tracks to be laid if they will only be used four times a day or less?
By the way, I added the PRR and B&O RR pictures to my Webshots site completing the series of railroads that provided passanger service to Youngstown over the years.
Question:
Are there still tracks on the south side of the Mahoning river that are in use?
If someone wants to tie a passenger terminal to the Chevrolet Center, why not build
it right across the river from the Center, and just build an indoor cat-walk over the
the river, from the passenger station to the Center?
It could be an alternative to trying to re-install tracks on the north side.
I just added two more pictures to my Webshots site showing the first Erie RR Passanger Depot in Youngstown. It was located at Commerce and Phelps Street.
http://community.webshots.com/user/ladynews500
These pictures were taked in the early 1900's.
This depot had quite a history, some funny some tragic, but I shant recall them here, but if anyone is interested, I post some of them under Youngstown Memories.
I also uploaded a photo of the first Pennsylvania RR Passanger Depot on Spring Commons. The photo was taken in 1889.
The "strange hours" that the Amtrak trains would keep in Youngstown have nothing to do with Conrail, which ceased to exist in 2000 and doesn't even operate the trackage that Amtrak used through Youngstown. Even in the days of the Erie Limited the stop in Youngstown would be in the middle of the night. Why is that? The long distance trains that pass through here are in the New York to Chicago run. It takes from 16 to 20 hours for the trip by rail. If a train leaving either city leaves in the afternoon for morning arrival at the other city it would put it through here in the wee hours of the morning. One of the perils of living halfway between the two cities. Nobody is going to change the train schedule so that the two local people per day who would ride the train could board during daylight hours.
The B&O station simply is the best location for an Amtrak station as it is located on FRA class 4 trackage, while I think the NS Lordstown Secondary has been downgraded to class 1 standards.
Here is another question for all of you wishing for high speed rail. Our area built a huge airport north of town with a runway that stretches halfway to Cleveland. Aside from the military base its only used for planes to Disneyworld. Now that the airport has been proven to be a failure the big push is on to create another government funded mass transit project for a diferent transportation mode. Will it too become an expensive but underutilized public works facility?
What trains I hear are using those tracks? CSX? Norfolk & Western?
I agree about having high sped rail service here, just as I agree about the airport.
As others have pointed out the runway is large enough to land Air Force One, hardly a small jet, yet none of the airlines are even considering it as an alternate stop over when traffic is too busy in Clevemand or Pittsburgh.
There are a whole lot of things we would like to have here in Youngstown, but unless things radically change, we shant get them.
Wouldn't it be better to set our sights lower for projects that are within our reach? Certainly our city officials are looking at it this way, so why can't we?
Again, this isn't about bringing high-speed rail just to Youngstown. This is about a line between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and Youngstown is a logical stop between the two larger cities.
Is it common for Cleveland residents or Pittsburgh residents to fly from their city to the other? If this is common, then I can see how discussing the airport is relevant. But, I would imagine that most people would just drive from Cleveland to Pittsburgh. (or take a train, if one were made available)
Ever heard of weather conditions, or other circumstances when landing at Cleveland or Pittsburgh is out of the question?
That's what I was referring to.
As to rail service, I saw the web site, and I fully understand what "the larger project" is, but I'm also well aware of what it would take to get Youngstown linked up to a high speed system.
A system as envisioned would cost a huge amount just to lay new tracks because high speed rail would require concrete ties like those currently being installed along Amtrak's Northeast corridor from Washington to Boston.
Again, it would require the instillation of special electric equipment since the new high speed trains use electricity as they have on the Northeast corridor route.
Amtrak has a limited number of high speed trains because of the huge cost of the trains. (Multimillion's of dollars per train.)
To be sure, the standard diesel could be used to move people from this area to a point where they could transfer to a high speed train, but to think that a high speed train could come through Youngstown would defeat the whole purpose of a high sped system.
Discovery Channel had a program recently about high speed trains. Amtrak's high speed train used in the Northeast corridor takes 7 hours to get from Boston to Washington, and nowhere along that route does it stop at every cow pasture town along the route.
I also would suggest that in my lifetime we won't see passanger service return to Youngstown, all other opinions not withstanding.
Why? The huge costs involved ... in the billions .
Could we benefit? Yes, by manufacturing the rails and electric towers.
An article in todays paper reports that our one local steel mill is looking to expand, and if this plan goes through, it could have a shot at a hefty contract to manufacture rails.
V&M Star does not make rails and are not set up to do that. Our nation has made a conscious decision that its too dirty, noisy and ugly to manufacture. We would rather shuffle assets and leave the manufacturing to the rest of the world.
The Erie Lackawanna and P&LE used to run the Steel Kings, Nos. 28 and 29 each way between Cleveland and Pittsburgh everyday. It was hardly a "high speed" rail line, and the trains mananged to haul commuters between the three cities for decades. In fact many EL executives whose offices were in Terminal Tower lived around Youngstown and took the train to work. So we don't need high speed (read high cost) rail service, conventional rail service would do nicely.
I couldn't agree with you more Rick. When I worked in Pittsburgh back in the late 1960's and early '70's I took the B&O back and forth on weekends, it was great. I'd get into Pittsburgh around 7:30 AM and be at work at 8:00.
Sorry to hear that the local mill isn't set up to manufacture rails
As for High Speed rail, as I said in another post, we've been hearing talk about it for over 25 years, and we're no closer to getting it now than when they first issued their first report.
Where's the state going to get the money. It's so deep in debt now that its not funny. As for the Feds ... by the time they bail out all the banks, Auto manufacturers etc. They're going to be in just as bad shape.
My word, when you factor in the Social Security and Medicare woes ... the national debt and all the other fiscal woes our government is facing, how could any reasonable person think that government can go on a spending binge?
What's so outrageous is the fact that these same people want to kill the industries that we do have in the name of saving the planet.
Pipe dreams aren't going to solve our immediate problems or put one scrap of food on our table.
Light rail mass transit (not high speed trains)costs 1/4 of what putting in more 4 lane highways would cost....
Dennis Spisak
The banking industry is seeking billions of dollars in bail out ... the auto industry is seeking billions in bail out ... nationally the unemployment nears 8% ... food prices are out of sight ... health care costs are driving families into bankruptcy ... wages are stagnet ... states like Ohio and California are billions of dollars in the red ... we are in deep recession as a nation and its expected to continue thru 2010 ... cities are in deep financial hurt, so where are we going to get the money to build light-rail systems?
The only way government gets money is through taxation, so what do we do, find new things to tax? What do we tax, and where are families going to get the money to pay the taxes?
Why is it so difficult to understand that for the foreseeable future we aren't in a position to throw money at every project that comes down the pike?
Maybe we should bring back programs like the WPA, or CCC to make some of these much needed infrastructure improvements?
I'll buy that. In fact the Obama administration is talking about such projects.
Given all the people currently unemployed, and the report to be released tomorrow (12/5/08) will take that number higher, I'm sure that the lines would be very long for the jobs that a WPA or CCC could create.
Our infrastructures are in desperate need of upgrading so I would hope that before things like lite-rail are considered, that our roads, highways and bridges are brought up to standard.
Also, such things as sewers, water lines, and sidewalks need upgrading.
These are all things that provided work in the first WPA.
As for the CCC, as I recall, they took care of national parks.
I agree with Towntalk 100% - a "WPA-Like" program would be a good thing
for the nation, given the current enonomic crisis, because it would kill TWO
birds with ONE stone:
1) Provide [nearly] IMMEDIATE jobs for a workforce that desperately needs
some new jobs.
2) Fix a crumbling infrastructure that has been neglected for literally DECADES.
Nothing pumps money into the economy like DECENT PAYING JOBS. The FED
would get part of their investment back in the form of payroll and income
taxes, which would help to stretch those taxpayer dollars a little farther
when it comes to public works stuff.
As far as "light rail" lines, I was thinking about this the other day and an
idea occurred to me that may - *OR may NOT* - be feasible: What if the
government were to re-cycle GOOD, USED railing from [now-abandoned]
rail lines and modify/adapt it for the use of all-electric train cars? In the
Washington, DC metropolitan area, we have Metro Rail (ie: our version of
"The Subway"). The cars run on "standard" rails - the only difference is
the presence of the "third rail" (ie: the electric rail that runs 770 volt
power for the trains).
The cars on DC's Metro system are all electric cars - they are heated and
air conditioned, and each and every car can be operated as a single, free
standing unit all its own. Every car has operator booths at BOTH ends of
the train car, with a complete set of state-of-the-art electronic controls, etc
and also contains the electric motors to make it go. The cars are comfortable,
QUIET, and have a top speed of just over 65 miles per hour. They weigh a
FRACTION of what a diesel locomotive weighs, and are easily service when
they DO break down (which is very seldom...)
Because each and every train car in this system can run independently, outages
are pretty much unheard of. If one car develops a mechanical or electrical
problem, the rest of the train can "carry" that car to the next station, where it
is simply removed from the train - whether replaced with another car, or not.
If an ACCURATE survey could be done on both a local, and regional, basis, then
it might *theoretically* be possible to create light commuter train services,
in areas where there is sufficient demand for it to be feasible and cost-effective.
A "WPA-Like", government-sponsored project to recycle usable rails, etc and
create such a system would definitely generate jobs, and local metal fabricating
plants could manufacture and supply - to the government - the miscellaneous
nuts, bolts, and hardware pieces needed to re-use and adapt old [still good]
rails to light transit use.
Recycling good, usable railing would greatly reduce the costs associated with
such a project, as well as speed up the pace of construction.
Youngstown may have lost the mills - but when they were running, the
Mahoning Valley produced some of the best and finest steel IN THE WORLD.
Nobody knew how to make high quality stuff better than the folks here in the
Mahoning Valley.
Gasoline is at its lowest per-gallon price in years, but you can BET your A**
that next summer, like clockwork, it's gonna go up again - right when the
summer vacation season starts. It does this every single year, without
exception. All-electric train cars are environmentally friendly, and they cost
far less to operate than trains that use Diesel locomotives. This kind of project
could help us to collectively reduce our dependence on oil.
Anyways, just toying around with some ideas - not sure if they would work or
not, but I hope the new administration at least considers the possibilities if, and
when, it decides to roll out some Public Works projects.
:)