As some may already know, I live in the Garden District neighborhood on the west side. But, I stay up-to-date on houses for sale on the west and north sides of the city.
I was browsing listings tonight, and a house on the north side really caught my eye. And, it was very inexpensive. (though I'm sure there are reasons...) The house is on North Heights Ave.
I'd like to know what it is like in that neighborhood. Besides being close to Wick Park and Stambaugh Auditorium, what kind of amenities are available? Is there a grocery store within walking distance, for example? (I tried to look this up on Google maps, and it gave me a Sparkle Market in Struthers.)
I'm not seriously considering this move yet. I'm somewhat excited by what might happen in the Garden District neighborhood in the near future. But, if I made the move, I would have a house that appears to have all the architectural detail I'm craving, and I could save a couple hundred dollars a month on a mortgage payment. Also, with the quality of the housing stock, in general, I think the north side is best poised for increased home values, and possible gentrification.
So please, share your opinions if you know about the neighborhood!!!
There is a Red & White Super Market on Elm Street between Park and Madison. This would be within walking distance in reasonable weather. While it's not a Sparkle Market it has just about everything you would need.
There are also churches within walking distance as well as a book store on Elm across the street from the store, and a florist shop.
Other than that there is little else in the way of businesses.
The Elm bus services the area.
How about crime? Wasn't that Red & White recently in the news? I'm not worried about that exactly, but I don't want to be afraid to sit on the porch on a sunny afternoon. (maybe I read the Vindy board too often, but some would have you believe that this is the case everywhere in Youngstown.)
I'd like to add that I do appreciate your reply.
In addition to the Elm, I would also have access to the Fifth bus route. One or the other goes by every half hour, in the morning and afternoon.
Both routes service that area.
As to crime ... I live on Elm and have lived here since 1984 with no problems, and yes, I enjoy my front porch as does my next door neighbor. Our particular neighborhood aside from traffic is quiet and peaceful.
I don't judge by what I read on the internet, I go by what I personally experience.
In the summer, I leave my front door open to take advantage of the fresh air, but then I live in an upper floor apartment, and there is no ground level access to my porch.
When I was working downtown, I would often walk to work for the exercise as well as walk home with absolutely no problems.
As to busses, I would take either the Elm or the Fifth Ave. bus depending on what mood I was in.
By the way, the Elm stops in front of Union Square Plaza.
If you depend upon the WRTA for your transportation on the north side, you should join the tax issue committee to help pass the quarter of a cent sales tax. As bus operating costs continue to rise, additional service cuts will take place without this replacement funding source.
The future of Mahoning Valley mass transportation is at risk. Get involved.
I also live on the Northside (in an apartment building on Park Ave & Pennsylvania Ave). Hunter Morrison from YSU lives across the hall from me. I've lived in this location for about a year and a half and haven't really had any problems whatsoever. Prior to that, I lived for several years on the corner of Elm/Broadway. There was a few negative instances but they were generally few and far between. I also lived on Illinois Ave for almost my entire time as an undergraduate at YSU. So, adding it all up, I've lived in the Wick Park are for about 7-8 years and I've never seen it better than right now. If I could rate the neighborhood from a scale from 1-10 (1 being horrible, 10 being wonderful) starting in the mid/late 90's to now, I'd give it a 4 when I first moved there in the 90's and a 6 1/2 maybe 7 now. However, I'm basing that on current conditions. More young professionals are moving to the greater north side, the police protection is significantly increasing, the Wick Park renovation project will begin implementation, a $24 million student housing project will begin on Elm, and the site next to Stambaugh Auditorium (boarded up houses) is close to a deal to bring a Rite Aid/CVS/Walgreens to that location (see: http://www.vindy.com/news/2008/sep/26/developer-abandons-student-housing-plan/), Stambaugh Auditorium is undergoing a multi-million dollar capital campaign...so I think the time to get in is now because I believe the neighborhood is on the rise and such investments reflect it. That's my two cents.
PK
P.S. Oh yeah,...you're also w/in walking distance of the Golden Dawn (which is now wireless...seriously...it's awesome)!
Phil:
Thanks for the good news, and I would like to ask if there is any timeline for these new projects?
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I'm going to set up an appointment to see the house.
If anyone has more to add, I'd still be glad to hear it.
I understand the deal fell through to build student apartments next to Stambaugh Auditiorium. I am glad. However, it looks like they may put retail there.
I am really upset that these beautiful brick buildings will disappear. They are in scale for the location, i.e., they don't overpower or interfere with the auditorium, they are pleasing and of interesting architecture and they are part of the overall look of Youngstown. Part of our heritage. Why does this happen over and over? New is not necessarily better. Just look at all of the ugly buildings on campus!
Not all of these buildings can be allowed to sit and rot and be an eyesore until someone finally takes an interest. Sometimes they just have to go, sad yes, but also good, as it is another block of the city that will no longer scare away visitors, but instead welcome them in.
:( Just a little update. I called the realtor yesterday, and she says that the house I was interested in was stripped of copper. Apparently, they didn't just cut the visible pipes in the basement, they smashed walls to get the plumbing to the second floor, too. I can't take on a project that large--especially since I don't have easy access to the house.
This vandalism is just another example of how these criminals are destroying our city.
How long will it take before this house ends up on the demolition list?
Welcome to the war. Grab a helmet.
Quote from: Defend Youngstown on September 30, 2008, 11:11:09 AM
Welcome to the war. Grab a helmet.
I really would like to do my small part to help reverse the spread of blight. So far, I've just been all talk, however. :( (see some of my previous posts about other houses)
I understand that there are too many houses for the number of people currently living in Youngstown. However, I wish there was some kind of volunteer committee in place (I'd be willing to be a part of this committee) who could determine whether a house in question is beyond repair / has no architectural merit and should be demolished, or put into some kind of system where the house could be "mothballed" and later offered to someone to restore and live in for $1.
Jay is right, this house on North Heights is likely to end up on the demolition list. But it should be saved at the expense of other houses/buildings that truly are beyond repair. The buildings Mary Krupa mentioned earlier in this post, might fall into the category of truly beyond repair. I have only seen exterior pictures on this site, but they look as though they have been stripped and prepared for demolition already. Because they have been open to the weather for at least a year, it's unlikely that they could easily be saved.
Wow! The Golden Dawn is seriously wireless now? That made my day!
I'm looking at a new prospect on Fairgreen. I might be looking at it this Friday. Right now, I just want to stabilize the property. I'll decide if I want to live there later.
Any thoughts about the 200 block of Fairgreen?
I live on the 400 block of Fairgreen. From what I heard from some YPD was that once you cross over Belmont that's when it gets really bad. If you live between Ford and Belmont and down towards Wick park you'll be alright, just like living on the northside, anticipate anything but it's not too bad.
Thanks for the reply Jaime.
I visited the house yesterday. I walked around the neighborhood a little. I walked from Elm and Woodbine to Broadway to Ohio, to North Heights to Fifth, to Fairgreen. It seemed pretty quiet, except for the traffic on Fifth.
I made this thread at another site:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18327.0.html
Further down, I made a picture tour of the house.
Westsider:
I looked at the photos you uploaded to the other message board, and I think
you are making a GOOD choice with this house. I bought a turn of the century,
yellow brick house on Woodbine Ave. that needed a LOT more work, and it is
worth every DIME I have put into it because of the quality of materials and
workmanship that went into the place when it was built.
Check out: http://allthingsyoungstown.net and click on Historic Homes
and Buildings, then click on No. 114 Woodbine. You'll see how much time, work
and money I am pouring into this house. The HVAC system is about to be
installed in the next couple of weeks and we will start closing her up inside
right after this stage is completed.
Now, as far as the costs involved in fixing this old house, they will be quite
substantial. Over the long term, you could easily pour $60,000 into the place
to do it RIGHT. However, there are things you could do in the near term to
make this house a long-term, affordable project.
The hardwood floors don't look that bad - carpet over them for now, and down
the road you could re-finishe them, one or two rooms at a time. The carpeting
will be way cheaper in the short term, and will help with the heating bills.
BEFORE you buy the house, check out a few things:
1) Is the house still connected to public utilities? My house on Woodbine was
off the electric grid for SO long that the city simply refused to re-connect
service unless and until the house was completely re-wired. Call a city building
inspector to come and look at the wiring in the house (if the power is currently
OFF) and tell you if the house can be reconnected without having to rewire it
completely. If so, you can always upgrade the wiring later - ROOM BY ROOM.
Start with a new "heavy-up" (ie: lines from the street to the house, main breaker
panel to replace those old screw-in fuses). When these homes were built, there
just wasn't much need for electrical power compared to today - the wiring in these
old homes is often overloaded by modern appliances, etc and sometimes it isn't
even properly grounded (ie: three prong outlets). In the old days, 60 amps worth
of fusebox capacity was plenty - NOT NOW. The current building codes in
Youngstown require something like 100 or 150 amp service in order to be adequate
for today's needs. Many of the older houses in town don't even have 240 Volt
service - only 120. If you are going to run an electric stove, water heater,
clothes dryer, etc you will need 240 volt service.
2) A new roof is going to cost you around $4,000 to $6,000 - I paid about $6K
for my new room at Woodbine Avenue, and me and my own crew had to completely
demolish the existing front porch roof right down to bare brick pillars, and start
over again. We also eliminated an old, obsolete chimney while the roofers had
everything taken apart.
If the roof just has a couple bad spots/leaks, then PATCH it, for now. The main
thing is to get the place weathertight A.S.A.P. - before more damage can
occur.
3) Have a building inspector check for structural faults and failures - these are
VERY costly to correct and, in most cases, CANNOT be done by yourself ie: a
licensed contractor must be used to replace any load-bearing members of the
house. My crew and I were able to "squeak by" when replacing one section of
wall framing that held up the middle of the house, because my contractor was
on-site doing other structural work (and he let us borrow six, 75,000 pound
jacks to lift up the center of the house while we did the re-framing work).
4) Are the furnace, hot water heater and plumbing still intact? A new furnace will
cost you a few thousand dollars to install, but the high-efficiency of today's
furnaces will pay you back, over the long run. I got quotes ranging between
$6,000 (the deal of a lifetime) and $17,000 (from a jerk who did not know what
he was doing with H.V.A.C. and these old houses).
If the plumbing has been ripped out by the scavengers already, REPLACE IT
WITH PLASTIC PIPE. The newer plastic pipe is more resistant to freezing,
does NOT require soldering at pipe joints, and it is flexible - which allows
bending it without kinking it, etc. It is MUCH easier to work with than copper
tubing (and probably somewhat less expensive). Youngstown has hard water,
and plastic pipes have a resistance to the buildup of "scale" inside them.
5) Does the house still have a working water and sewer main coming in from the
street? Digging up the front yard all the way to the street to install a new
rough in for water and sewer can cost several thousand dollars. We had to dig
up the basement floor and install all new sewer lines at the Woodbine Ave. house
because the sewer pipes were made of the old ceramic stuff and were crushed
underneath the floor.
6) As far as missing architectural features (the fireplace mantles, etc) have you
considered buying them from an antique dealer? Another possibility is to look
for houses on the city's DEMO list and see if you can contact the owners for
salvage purposes - you might be able to find some of these items in houses
that are ready to be torn down soon and recycle them for your house - with
the owner's permission, of course.
6) New windows can be expensive, but there are alternatives. Does the house
have storm windows? Storm windows can really cut down on heat loss and since
they are attached to the outside of the window frames they would not require
that you disturb the existing windows and wood work inside the house.
There are companies that make WOODEN window sashes that will exactly replace
the wooden sashes in the house - with double pane, thermal glazing in the new
sashes. There are spring clips that can be installed in the window jams to hold
the sashes up when they are opened - WITHOUT having to tear apart the interior
wood work and restore the old rope-pully-counterweight mechanisms. I don't
know what the cost is on these modern wooden windows, but if you are trying
to keep the historical look of the place they are a viable alternative to vinyl
windows.
7) Since the house needs repairs to the walls and ceilings, start with the ceilings
on the second floor FIRST - tear them down and install fiberglass insulation before
you hang new, sheetrock ceilings. Run a new piece of wiring for the overhead
light while you have the the ceiling down in each room.
EVERY time you knock down the plaster on an exterior wall - install insulation
and new wiring for that wall before putting up new sheetrock. The NUMBER ONE
reason these old houses are so bad on energy is the fact that they do NOT
have any insulation in them, just dead air space inside the walls.
Even with an older, less efficient furnace in the basement, insulating the house
will bring a BIG reduction in your heating bills - and you can claim a deduction on
your taxes for doing anything that makes the house more energy efficient.
When making your final decision whether to buy the house or not, consider what
it will cost you to simply get the place into habitable condition - ie: everything
works and the place is water tight. The rest can come later, little by little, over
time. If you can live in the house with one bedroom, one bathroom, and a working
kitchen and don't mind the mess it could be a livable situation for you.
I hope this information helps. It's a beautiful old house - I would buy it.
Thanks so much for your reply Allan!
I've looked at your site many times! I do have a question for you. Do you have problems with vandalism while you're away? I could see people taking 2 different attitudes toward your properties: 1. This person is working on this house, so there is new stuff to steal, and 2. This person is working on this house, so lets leave it alone and strip a house that isn't being cared for.
While I'm fairly positive that the wiring throughout the house is old, (too old, I'm pretty sure the outlets were not 3 pronged.) the pictures that the realtor sent me show a newer breaker box in the basement. Considering the number of switches in the box, there are either 3 separate panels for each apartment, or there were only a few circuits in the house originally.
I'm glad to hear that the roof might cost less than I originally thought. I think it's at the end of its useful life, though. I realize that the pictures I posted on-line are fairly small, but when I looked at the original images at full resolution, the roof almost looked like slate because the shingles were so deteriorated.
Were you able to tell that there were structural issues? Could you feel an unevenness in the floors? I've toured houses with rather uneven floors before. But, this house seems to have fairly straight, level floors.
The copper plumbing has been completely stripped. They even smashed a few holes in the walls where they thought there would be more plumbing. I definitely agree about using PEX tubing instead of new copper. There is an old furnace. I saw it in the pictures the realtor sent. But I don't know if it works. Unfortunately, I didn't go into the basement. The house made such a bad first impression on me that I didn't want to waste the realtor's time by venturing down there. (same for the attic, which was only accessible through the outside entrance) So, I don't know if there is a water heater.
How likely is it that an inspector will be able to determine the condition of the water and sewer lines from the street?
I'm not sure what I would do about the windows, yet. I'm not too concerned about the woodwork because it has all been painted. It's not all that ornate around the windows and doors anyway. (and so could be recreated with new wood, if necessary)
I might be showing how naive I am, but I wonder if it would pay to take down the plaster around all the outside walls? This way, the walls could be insulated, AND it would be easier to run new wiring.
Why doesn't someone buy my brick house over on Lansdowne? Solidly built two story with an attic and basement, has all the original woodwork (still varnished, never repainted), roof doesn't leak, has one acre of land with several mature trees, retired couple lives on one side and a wooded lot on the other with no houses behind. I repainted the living room and one of the upstairs bedrooms. Kitchen was horrible and has been gutted, and I took out all the copper to run PEX.
I just need 10K for it which is the cost to satisfy a couple of leins. It's secured, all windows intact etc. I will never do anything with it, so it will sit until someone either adopts it or it gets vandalized and the arsonists or the dozer gets it.
Well, I just got a call from my bank, to let me know that they will not lend money on a property that needs this much work. I can't take out a home equity loan on my own home, because I still owe just a little less than what I could realistically sell it for. Of course, I haven't shopped around yet. But I'd be surprised if I don't get a similar answer from other banks.
It will take me about 20 months to save up enough cash to buy the house and have enough money left over to make initial repairs. (THAT SHOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN DONE AT LEAST 5 YEARS AGO!!!) It seems likely that, if someone else doesn't buy it and stabilize it first, it will be demolished by then. (In the recently released vacant properties survey, it was given an "F")
AFAIK, my credit is very good--does anyone have any creative financing ideas?
Quote from: westsider on February 16, 2009, 12:38:54 PM
AFAIK, my credit is very good--does anyone have any creative financing ideas?
Maybe get in contact with a couple nonprofits to see if there are any grant opportunities to rehab the home. Common Wealth Inc. and the North Side Citizens Coalition are very active on the north side. Common Wealth has created a new marketing program called Resettle Youngstown.
I'm far from being a banking expert, but maybe if you're able to secure some funds for rehab, the banks may be more willing to issue a loan. Its worth a shot.
As far as I know, the only other local grant opportunity for building rehab is the City's historic facade renovation/preservation grant, but this is usually only used for commercial properties.
http://cfweb.cc.ysu.edu/northsidecoalition/
http://www.commonwealthinc.org/
Thanks for the links!
As far as vandalism goes, one of the first things I did with the house on Woodbine
was to install an ADT security system, with motion sensors. A while ago, someone
pulled the phone wire out of the side of the house in an attempt to defeat the
alarm - but mine has a wireless backup, so they were not successful.
:/
Westsider:
I don't know if this information just released this morning will help you, but take a look a it.
Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan Fact Sheet
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20090218factsheet.pdf
Help for homeowners
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/02/18/Help-for-homeowners/
You could get a better built house in better shape with no money down on a larger lot. Please someone make a deal on my Lansdowne house before it is trashed. 1615 Lansdowne. Drive by. Take a look. No banks needed. I'll work out a sweetheart deal that you can't refuse.
Quote from: Rick Rowlands on February 18, 2009, 09:32:07 PM
You could get a better built house in better shape with no money down on a larger lot. Please someone make a deal on my Lansdowne house before it is trashed. 1615 Lansdowne. Drive by. Take a look. No banks needed. I'll work out a sweetheart deal that you can't refuse.
Some pics would help
Quote from: Rick Rowlands on February 18, 2009, 09:32:07 PM
You could get a better built house in better shape with no money down on a larger lot. Please someone make a deal on my Lansdowne house before it is trashed. 1615 Lansdowne. Drive by. Take a look. No banks needed. I'll work out a sweetheart deal that you can't refuse.
There are a couple reasons I'm not interested in your house, Rick. It looks like it would only be accessible to one of 2 bus routes: the Oak or the McGuffey. But, I don't think there is a location on Lansdowne that is accessible to both. (I could be wrong, though. the WRTA website is down right now, so I can't check.) Also, I don't want a yard any bigger than a quarter acre. Any more than that, and I'd probably have to get a gas or electric mower. (A quarter acre would probably be quite a chore with a reel mower, but I think it's doable.)
I'm curious though, why do you say your house is better built? It's my impression that the houses on the north side--like the one I'm looking at--were second in quality only to those built on Fifth Ave. and around Wick Park? (or maybe they were the McMansions of their day? :) )
I was wrong. The WRTA site is back up, and it appears that the Albert route covers a large portion of Lansdowne.
That made my day! :laugh:
Hi Westsider....I live about 6 houses from the one you looked at and I looked at the same house about 3 years ago. It has been empty for quite some time. It is actually pretty quiet in the 200 block of Fairgreen and it's a shame that the bank won't loan you any money for that house. Have you talked to anyone at the City to see if there are programs that would help you get into that house??
Westsider...there are programs out there but you're going to have to do
some digging. As far as going on the demo list, you could write a letter
to the building inspector - stating your intentions regarding the property,
and a rough time table for getting any code violations fixed and he might
be willing to take the house off the demo list. I bought the apartment
building at Woodbine and Bryson and it was on the demo list at the time.
I talked to the building inspection and demolitions guy at the time (can't
recall his name right now) and he took the building off the list, making
it possible for me to buy it and stabilize it - for now.
As far as the sewer and drains stuff - we tested the drains in the basement
and nothing we could do would get the water to go down - we then tried
snaking out the pipes and discovered they had shattered under the floor.
It's not a common problem with these old houses, but it happens because
the terra-cotta ceramic pipes get brittle with age.
Check and see if the house is within one of the historic districts here in
town. All of the properties I bought were close enough to Wick Park
that the fall within the historic district and are listed on the national
register. Some day, I will pursue some historic restoration tax credits
when I do the work on the apartment building.
Talk to all of the organizations on the North Side, as already mentioned
in other responses....they might be able to steer you to lenders willing
to give you a shot - and a loan - on this house. Ten to twenty thousand
dollars worth of work could render this house "habitable" with the city
inspectors and, if you can sell your present house it could work for you.
Also - have you considered renting out your current residence if you buy
this other house? If you can get enough rent, you can keep the house
you already own and have your tenants pay your mortgage. At the very
least, you would wind up with two homes - one paying for itself - and
have more assets and more income. You can deduct the mortgage interest
on an "investment" [ie: rental property] to some extent on your taxes, along
with depreciation deductions, and deductions for any maintenance and repairs
on an investment property.
I won't be nosy and ask your current payment or interest rate on your
mortgage, but if it's more than 5% or so, it would be worth re-financing
ONLY what you owe on the place to get a lower monthly payment, and a guaranteed fixed rate.
Interest rates are at their absolute bottom right now and a re-fi could
save you tens of thousands over the life of the mortgage. The new, lower
payment would be like getting a raise at work - giving you more money to
buy and fix the property you are interested in.
Having this property rented out also makes you more credit-worthy with the
banks and lenders - because you would have more assets and more income
to show them. They could look at your loan application and say to themselves
"this person has a job, good credit, they already own property operating as a
small business [ie: rental], etc. Owning multiple properties WILL give you some
leverage with lenders - especially with the rent coming in on one of them.
It shows them a higher income-to-debt ratio.
I don't know your personal living situation [ I wouldn't be so nosy as to ask]
but if you have a couple spare bedrooms, have you considered the possibility
of renting one or two rooms to YSU students? It could bring in extra
[undocumented, and therefore tax-free] income to help you buy and fix up the
house you are interested in.
Anyways, just some ideas....don't give up just yet! Buying the house will
increase your net worth, and could be a nest egg for retirement some day,
as well as a source of revenues for you.
OH.. I forgot to answer one of your questions about structural problems
and how to check some things:
1) Start in the basement. Look for ANY sagging or cracked beams. Bring
two "carpenter's levels" with the little glass/water/bubble things in them.
Hold the levels up to the beams in both directions and check for bent,
broken, or sagging beams.
2) Go to the first floor and lay the two carpenter's levels in an "L" pattern
on the floor in a couple spots in every room. The bubble indicators will show
even a slight slope in the floors.
3) If you see a wall that looks like it's leaning, turn the level upright and
check for "out of plumb" wall studs.
4) Look at all of the door jambs in their frames throughout the house.
Close the door in every door frame and look at the crack between the door
and the frame, both on top and running vertically - are the gaps uniform from
one end to the other - or are the door frames "out of square"?
This is an easy and accurate indicator that floors and/or walls have shifted,
sagged, etc. If a door frame is so bad that the door will not close, or
someone has cut the door to work around the problem, then you have some
structural issues that will eventually have to be dealt with if you want to
really fix the place up right.
Hope this helps...
Allan
:)
Thanks for the replies Shar and Allan.
I should have updated this thread sooner, but I was just going to "let sleeping dogs lie."
Unfortunately, not long after my last post, my hours were cut by 20%. So, all of the "disposable" income that I had planned to use on this house dried up. (my profession is directly connected to some of this stimulus money that has recently been released, so if we get enough work, I might be back in the game)
I didn't think about refinancing my house before. But, I don't think the money saved would be enough to carry a second mortgage comfortably. I'm also not willing to consider taking a roommate. I'm just not comfortable with that. I hear too many horror stories about bad tenants.
If having rental property makes me more credit-worthy, maybe I should consider buying the house across the street and renting it out? Then, I wouldn't have to worry about giving my house-keys to a virtual stranger.
I guess, for now, I'm going to save what I can until we go back to work full time. Until then, I hope this house survives, or is bought by someone else who cares.
As an architect, it's my professional opinion that this house is more worthy of saving than others. The houses in my current neighborhood were built for the average worker, and are very similar to houses across the country from the same era. The house on the north side was built for management, and is one of the houses that makes the north side unique.