A fence was recently installed on the sidewalk in front of the Rosetta Stone Cafe in downtown Youngstown. The fence extends along the entire front of the building and occupies over one half of the entire sidewalk (building to curb) and almost 2/3 of the walkable sidewalk.
Question
Is the fence an obstruction to pedestrians walking on the sidewalk?
Looks to me like the planter is the obstruction. Maybe move it back a few feet.
Heavens no, I should think that it looks rather nice, like many of the quaint cafes in Europe.
If I'm enjoying a meal at an outdoor table, I'm sure that I want some distence between myself and passers by.
Obviously the city approved the fence or the restaurant could not have put it there.
And their food is fantastic.
I think, as long as there's 34" between the fence and the tree, it should be fine. That's the minimum clearance required for an ADA compliant opening.
Jay, you may think so, but it looks fine to me. This is Youngstown, not New York City. It's very rare to see more than 3 people next to each other walking in downtown at a given time. Mostly just people working down there going to lunch and stuff. This will be fine!
Check these out from Columbus. Now, some of these are problems...
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15985.0.html
Thanks for the link Westsider.
I believe one of the posts mentioned a "cafe-table lease" having to be paid to the city of Columbus for outdoor dining.
Questions
If these are public sidewalks, did the city of Youngstown give permission to anchor the fence to the sidewalk?
Was a zoning permit issued? (I believe you need a permit to erect a fence on your Youngstown residential property)
Does the city of Youngstown have a policy for outdoor sidewalk dining spaces? If so, what is it?
Can anyone just come downtown and set up chairs on the sidewalk?
Does the city charge a monthly or yearly fee?
I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS ! ! !
Next thing you know they will be able to take their trash and dump it right straight into the Mahoning River because they are 'A BUISNESS' ! ! ! Lets wait and see if they call "Patio Enclosures" make it a sunroom dining area - what the HAYYYY It would be GOOD FOR BUISNESS - fine dinning right in you space 8)
Yea Man if Columbus can DO IT then why not Youngstown ::)
As Marie Antoinette may have said "Let THEM walk in the street"! ! ! ;)
I can't believe anyone would criticize and not welcome something like this! The city should be helping the restaurant to do things like this. This creates instant appeal. This is what makes a downtown attractive. Yes, the planter should be moved.
Geez, hasn't anyone traveled to other places and seen this?
It definitely makes the place more noticeable. The first time I went looking for it, I went right past it twice.
It doesn't look like an obstruction but it might feel friendlier to passers by without the fence.
I tried a sandwich when they were at the Pig Iron Street fest. Thought it was ok. I am impressed with the fact that have free meeting rooms if you buy food.
I like the outdoor dining area at the Cedars. All of the seating is located on their own property.
Cedars' dining area is very nice. But the owners of Rosetta Stone obviously don't have that kind of vacant land available to them.
Didn't Lums Steak House have outdoor seating when they were downtown? I know that they whipped up some of the best meals in town bar none, and their service was great even at rush hours. Those were the good old days.
Rosetta Stone Cafe wanted to build an outdoor patio so that they could serve food and drinks in proper accordance with State of Ohio law. They passed through the proper channels in City Hall (i.e. Design Review, Zoning, etc) which approved the expansion. They are current working with the Ohio Dept of Liquor Control for expansion of their liquor permit.
PK
Proper accordance with state law? What?
PEOPLE - PEOPLE - GET A GRIP
My Lady Mary K. - yes I have been "around"! Barcelona Spain in particular is one of the most beautiful cities I have even had the pleasure of being in and enjoying it's WIDE streets and even WIDER walkways lined with aged Sycamores and a cafe here and there. One of my most pleasurable memories is drinking Cognac with friends after dinner at an outdoor cafe in Corfu Greece. I enjoy outdoor dining as much as the next person - maybe even more so since I truly love being outdoors and am not keen on air conditioning. I hate to say this BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT I AM TALING ABOUT ! ! ! I have enjoyed dinning at the Cedars also and having Eggplant that I know was pick from one of the many Eggplants right in the garden. The Cedars CHOSE to do this to THEIR OWN PROPERTY - they could have put in "customer parking" but they DIDN'T! ! !
I can see BW3 doing this in front of the Stambaugh Building because they have a much larger space between the building and the street. The restaurant in the parking deck on East Boardman also has an outdoor dinning area. I AM TALKING ABOUT ENCROACHMENT. I AM TALKING ABOUT R-E-S-P-E-C-T FOR THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY AND COMMON GOOD. Sorry I am not talking about aesthetes nor you desire for European outdoor dining here in Youngstown Ohio. I am talking about someone who HAS "TAKEN OVER HALF THE SIDEWALK" . Let me put this another way - he is relatively a short distance from the corner. Why doesn't he just knock down the building next to him and be like the Cedars and he can have a nice place there???? Ohhhhh someone OWNS THAT BUILDING! ! ! NO ONE OWNS THE SIDEWALK and I am sure NO ONE minds that he "takes permanent possesion of IT after all this is DOWNTOWN YOUNGSTOWN and NO ONE doesn't even USE the sidewalk - well ya know what Marie A would say "Let'em walk in the street.
The reason I was told that the permanent fence was put up was so that alcohol could be served with it the fenced boundary - someting to do with "Conceal Carry" Gun Law.
Thank you for reading my ranting ! ! !
Ok then.... So, who needs to be contacted about having the planter moved a few feet?
Well to little ol me it would seem obvious "the controlling" party in this situation is the owner of the restaurant - seeing that it wouldn't have to be moved if he didn't put the fence up. The "City Officials" gave him permission and certainly they knew the planter was "where it is" and if it were against the any rules or regulations it would have been moved. Isn't THAT correct?
The planter could easily be moved if one had a forklift or some other construction vehicle.
The narrow part of the sidewalk is the space between the fence and the trees.
People walking together usually walk side by side. I guess that when a couple walking east meets a couple walking west one or both parties will have to go single file.
It's hard to tell how close the planter is to the space between the tree and the fence corner. If it's within 4-5 feet I would recommend moving it closer to where Jay took his picture.
Also, I note from the picture that the sidewalk looks a little sunk under the planter, hard to tell without looking in person. If it is, then would the sidewalk need repaired if the planter was moved?
I don't think the planter is a problem. It only looks close because of the angle of the picture. Jay is right that the narrowest part is between the fence and trees. But, there seems to be enough space to be ADA accessible.
I walked down this sidewalk yesterday. After seeing it in person I have now realized that some of you will complain about anything. Get over it and lets MOVE ON!
SORRY I at my age I can not move on :laugh: However being FORCED TO I can and suppose I will have to MOVE AROUND ::)