The director of the WRTA went before the Mahoning County Commissioners and asked that a .25% sales tax levy be placed on the ballot to expand the WRTA bus service throughout the entire county.
Would the residents of Mahoning County be willing to pay an additional sale tax for this expanded bus service?
I certainly would. But I don't think I'm in the majority.
We would also.
I think that one fourth of one percent is a very reasonable amount, if
it will help improve the mass-transit system in the Youngstown area.
As I have said before, having an efficient and cost-effective system
of public transportation is absolutely critical to the continued recovery
of the local economy in the Youngstown area.
:)
Most residents in the suburbs will not vote for this levy. They usually have multiple cars per household and do not see the need for mass transportation.
You're overlooking some factors Jay:
Mortgages on homes to be paid ... ever increasing utility bills ... ever increasing tax bills ... a stagnate regional economy ... high health care insurance bills.
The folks in the suburbs aren't filthy rich, but because they are for the most part in a higher income tax bracket than the city folks, they do not qualify for many of the state and federal programs that could help them, so what is the first thing that goes when their debts outstrip their income? That second car? That satellite dish? Those nights dining out? Going to the theater? Or trying to keep the wolf away from their door?
What do you think the average family in Boardman or Canfield, or Poland has to shell out for home insurance ... for health insurance ... for utilities?
Sooner or later the bubble will burst and bankruptcy floods in.
Sooner or later public transportation will no longer be an option but a necessity.
Even though Youngstown has the lowest household income of any community in the valley, the average Youngstown resident does not use the WRTA. Although there might be some support for the transit sales tax in the suburbs, it won't be enough to pass the tax throughout the county.
Question
How much revenue would the .25% sale tax provide for the bus system each year?
Quote from: jay on December 10, 2007, 05:32:38 AM
Question
How much revenue would the .25% sale tax provide for the bus system each year?
According to this Vindy article:
http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regional/293298124761741.php
the tax would generate about $7.5 million annually. I don't remember the number, but this is significantly more than their current budget.
If it's just a small minority of city people who are riding the bus while the vast majority drive their cars, why should they have a gun put to their head and be forced to pay their hard earned money to fund something they will never use?
Without meaning to do it, you make a good case for closing WRTA. How many of the WRTA riders have a meaningful job, pay taxes, as opposed to folks on welfare who don't pay a dimes worth of taxes but derive their income from those who do work and pay taxes?
Car pooling makes more sense than funding a regional transet system that keeps runing in the red.
What's not mentioned in these debates is the fact that there are alternative transportation systems for the poor that are also funded by the tax payers and operated by the Community Development Agency and a number of churches. These systems are more efficient than WRTA because they go door to door.
Quote from: Towntalk on December 10, 2007, 10:33:49 AM
If it's just a small minority of city people who are riding the bus while the vast majority drive their cars, why should they have a gun put to their head and be forced to pay their hard earned money to fund something they will never use?
Because it would be a sales tax, they wouldn't be "forced" to pay anything.
Quote
Without meaning to do it, you make a good case for closing WRTA. How many of the WRTA riders have a meaningful job, pay taxes, as opposed to folks on welfare who don't pay a dimes worth of taxes but derive their income from those who do work and pay taxes?
Car pooling makes more sense than funding a regional transit system that keeps running in the red.
What's not mentioned in these debates is the fact that there are alternative transportation systems for the poor that are also funded by the tax payers and operated by the Community Development Agency and a number of churches. These systems are more efficient than WRTA because they go door to door.
Eliminating the WRTA all together is a step in the wrong direction. I currently know someone who is trying to relocate because of our very limited mass-transit system. I would also relocate if the WRTA was eliminated entirely.
If the system were expanded to serve the whole county, I think more people would use it. Currently, the service is too limited to work for most people. (The service was too limited when I moved here 7 years ago, and it has gotten much worse with the service cuts recently.)
I agree with you Westsider. My only point was that some folks were saying that the folks in the suburbs won't use WRTA for any reason but prefer their SUV's, forgetting that as I pointed out in a previous post that even they have their limits. Its getting to the point that between taxes, and costs of all the utilities, etc. even they will have to swallow their pride and leave the SUV in the garage and take the bus.
NO ONE IN THE SUBURBS HAS A LIMITLESS BUDGET. For that matter it makes little sense that a person in the suburbs would drive their car to work, let it sit there all day then drive home that night if they could take a bus that could take them right to their door unless that car were a part of their job. Most of the meaningful jobs are in the suburbs anyway.
By reorganizing the routes in the suburbs, WRTA could hit all the plaza's, malls and office buildings in Boardman by adding a shuddle bus.
This is a bit off-topic, but if the sales tax passes, maybe the WRTA could model their service after the Stark Area Regional Transit Authority. (SARTA)
They offer service to the whole county. They run day, night, and even Sundays! And, their fares are less, at $1.15.
http://www.sartaonline.com/
--edit--
I should have read a little further, the WRTA's story could be the same as SARTA's.
QuoteOn December 1, 1997 the Canton Regional Transit Authority (CRTA) following the successful passage of a sales tax levy which replaced Canton RTA's property tax, began operation as the Stark Area Regional Transit Authority (SARTA). According to the RCW, establishing SARTA as Stark County's mobility provider, the agency would provide service to all of Stark County, Ohio.
I'm tired of so much of my money going to subsidize the "poor" or the "children" while I can't drive down a city street without getting the #%@&% jarred out of me from the horrible condition of the roads. Lets put a sales tax levy on to fix the streets that EVERYONE uses, not continue to prop up a failed transist system that only a few people use.
I think you all forget what government is supposed to do. Provide law and order, protect our borders, provide infrastructure and all those things that are neccesary for a civilization. But instead what do we get? Undermanned police departments, open borders, collapsing bridges and bombed out roads, and what do people clamour for? Gimme, gimme, gimme,gimme,gimme. I want free buses, free health care, welfare, WIC, food stamps...
But poor old Rick has to go to work tonight in a cold mill building and work my butt off so that I can pay my taxes so that others may continue to freeload.
I am so SICK AND TIRED of being in the middle class and constantly being queezed to pay for stuff that I don't use and never will use. I want to be left alone, and to keep the money I earn! So go away with your talk of new taxes that benefit the few at the expense of all of us!
You have quite some nerve westsider to state that you'll leave the area if you can't get the rest of us to pay for your transportation! How about you come over here and fill my gas tank today? If you want me to pay an additional tax that will keep your bus running then you should help me put fuel in my truck! I have a better idea. How about I pay for my gas and you pay for your bus and leave each other out of it. I never ask the government for anything, just to be left alone. But you want government to forcibly take my hard earned money so that you can go to the store this afternoon. No!
I can agree with most of what you said Rick ... there are to be sure thousands of ways that the government is robbing us and all you have to do is look at all the pork that is in the just passes federal budget ... all 3000 pages of it.
Our borders are wide open ... our infrastructure is falling apart ... jobs are going overseas ... goods that we use to make here are now being made in China ... our health care system is reaching the point where only the rich can afford it ... our schools are a shambles ... we are being robbed by our legislators and they actually brag about it ... they are even trying now to tell use even what to eat and drink, and don't even mention the fact that they are forcing smokers and drinkers to pay for "benefits" for sports arenas etc., then telling them that they can't go there.
The list of complaints is endless. Just take a look at one of the features I have on my web site concernig Congressional Pork.
At for WRTA, I can also agree that for many, it's the straw that is breaking the proverbial camel's back. The question is, how can it be fixed so that expences can be cut.
Why for example do we need all the buses running after 7:00 PM? Why Saturday runs? People need to get places on holidays but the buses don't run so what is different about Saturday?
Back in the 20's,30's,and 40's....when there was no middle class public transportation was the only way to travel....I remember my father telling me about the bus rides from Campbell to Downtown Youngstown....
They say history repeats itself...so when NAFTA and free trade and China wipe out the middle class.....our children and grandchildren
will be back to public transportation....
Quote from: Rick Rowlands on December 20, 2007, 09:31:46 AM
I'm tired of so much of my money going to subsidize the "poor" or the "children" while I can't drive down a city street without getting the #%@&% jarred out of me from the horrible condition of the roads. Lets put a sales tax levy on to fix the streets that EVERYONE uses, not continue to prop up a failed transist system that only a few people use...
...But poor old Rick has to go to work tonight in a cold mill building and work my butt off so that I can pay my taxes so that others may continue to freeload.
I am so SICK AND TIRED of being in the middle class and constantly being queezed to pay for stuff that I don't use and never will use. I want to be left alone, and to keep the money I earn! So go away with your talk of new taxes that benefit the few at the expense of all of us!
You have quite some nerve westsider to state that you'll leave the area if you can't get the rest of us to pay for your transportation! How about you come over here and fill my gas tank today? If you want me to pay an additional tax that will keep your bus running then you should help me put fuel in my truck! I have a better idea. How about I pay for my gas and you pay for your bus and leave each other out of it. I never ask the government for anything, just to be left alone. But you want government to forcibly take my hard earned money so that you can go to the store this afternoon. No!
I'd like to be clear on a couple things. I am not poor. I am not a child. I am middle class. I am gainfully employed at a privately owned business. I am also on the borderline of being legally blind, so I can't drive. The statement I made wasn't a demand. It's just a simple fact that, if there is no mass-transit system here, I won't stay here.
I am not taking anything from you. You are just as free to take the bus as I am. EVERYONE can use the bus system, and this sales tax should make it easier and more convenient for more people.
Mass-transit is also infrastructure.
Using your logic, I shouldn't pay taxes to the schools. I'm not going to use them, and I'm not going to have children who would use them. I'd save a lot of money on property taxes.
Lastly, if you are so inclined, you wouldn't have to pay this tax at all. You can always do your shopping in a neighboring county.
Yes I think that we shouldn't pay taxes for schools. Why should the government run schools? If you ever want to royally screw something up let the government do it. Its been shown that the private sector can do the job and better. Lets run the school system the way we run universities. Each person pays for their own. Besides property taxes are the most unfair and anti American tax we have. But in the land of gimme gimme gimme who cares about being fair?
Mass transit used to be run by private for profit corporations who were granted a franchise to operate in certain metropolitan areas. Youngstown Municipal Railway, The Park and Falls Street Railway, Youngstown & Suburban, Youngstown and Sharon Street Railway. When the ability to make a profit went away because of a shift in how the population moves itself then these companies went under. There was no longer any rational reason to operate those services.
How much does the average WRTA rider pay per day in fares? I figure that I pay over $12.00 per day to drive my vehicle when all the fees, insurance, licenses, fuel etc. are added in. Do bus riders pay that much?
Lets do away with the WRTA tax idea and instead replace it with a simple formula. Take the cost to run the WRTA for one year, divide it by the number of passenger/miles per year and that will be your fare per mile. Multiply that by the number of miles you ride that trip and you will then be paying your own way, just like I do! I'll bet you wouldn't like to pay the true cost.
Quote from: Rick Rowlands on December 20, 2007, 10:16:53 PM
Yes I think that we shouldn't pay taxes for schools. Why should the government run schools? If you ever want to royally screw something up let the government do it. Its been shown that the private sector can do the job and better. Lets run the school system the way we run universities. Each person pays for their own. Besides property taxes are the most unfair and anti American tax we have. But in the land of gimme gimme gimme who cares about being fair?
So, what about all the families who can't afford to send their children to school? My property taxes are about $800/yr. I don't know how much private schools cost, but I know it's more than the $800/yr. that I'd save.
Quote
Mass transit used to be run by private for profit corporations who were granted a franchise to operate in certain metropolitan areas. Youngstown Municipal Railway, The Park and Falls Street Railway, Youngstown & Suburban, Youngstown and Sharon Street Railway. When the ability to make a profit went away because of a shift in how the population moves itself then these companies went under. There was no longer any rational reason to operate those services.
Yes, because, starting in the 20's and 30's, people began to think that their automobile was the only means of transportation they needed; the trolley was for poor people who couldn't afford a car. But now, gas is hovering at $3.00/gallon. Even you estimate that it costs $12.00/day for your truck. Should the people who can't afford that just sit at home and collect unemployment because they can't get to work? (or should we end welfare and unemployment programs, and let them starve?) Wouldn't you rather pay $2.50 per day and an extra quarter for every $100 you spend at the store, instead? There are also the environmental advantages to mass-transportation.
Unfortunately we can gripe all we want about taxes be they school or for mass transportation but in the end we can't escape them. Be thankful that you don't live in Pennsylvania where the taxes are much higher.
Not only does the state dig deep into your pocket, but so do the counties and cities.
We can't escape them for now. But someday this pyramid scheme will collapse (a shrinking number of taxpayers subsidizing a growing number of non contributors) and the country will collapse.
I'm not griping as much as pointing out how far we have come from our nation's founding ideals.
Some type of Mass Transit is needed to revive Youngstown......
Mass Transist from the suburbs to YSU during the week might be an option for those folks who dread winter driving to campus...
Here's an article from Green Energy Ohio on how thw University of Toledo along with TARTA and a fed grant are keeping their buses running.....hello Congressman Ryan??????
FROM GREEN ENERGY OHIO
Think that the high price of gasoline has YOU worried? Think about the headaches you'd have if you ran a fleet of vehicles. Say 2000 of them. That's the number that Ken Neidert, Toledo's Commissioner of Fleet and Facility operations has to worry about.
In the last two months of 2007 he says he'll probably go $500,000 over his 3.1 million a year budget for fuel. I asked what would happen if prices continue to spiral upward
"It's disastrous," said Commissioner Neidert, "because basically what we'll do is ask the city to shut down the fleet. We just sent a memo out to the city asking to stop all non-essential vehicles, and adhere to the no libeling policy. Police seem to think their cars need to run at the scene of an accident to make their LED lights run. Everyone thinks as diesel engine needs to run, that they have to warm it up for an hour or 30 minutes before running, and that is just not the case. So it's re-education and making the directors responsible. So far, that has fallen on deaf ears because they've never been pushed to that point. So a re-education program is going to be a major thing. "
But he's doing more than re-education. Toledo's bus system, TARTA, has partnered with the University of Toledo and a private company H2 Engine Systems in a with a $1.5 million grant made possible by Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur to investigate the impact of using a mixture of biodiesel and petroleum-based diesel fuels.
The study is being conducted by the Intermodal Transportation Institute at the University of Toledo. According to Mark Vonderembse, the University of Toledo's principal investigator on the Bio Diesel project and a professor in the Department of Information Technology Management, their research shows that freight and passenger transportation will rise anywhere from 40-80% by 2020. "This will provide us with congested highways and rail lines." says Vonderembse. "We are looking at this primarily from the freight perspective. There are plenty of agencies looking at it from the passenger side. So how do we move the goods? "
They are studying the effectiveness of three different types of fuel; ultra-low-sulfur diesel (ULSD), a biofuel, B20 ? derived from soybean oil and yellow grease (primarily, recycled cooking oil from restaurants), and bio-hydrogen. A Bio-hydrogen engine burns biodiesel and has a small amount of hydrogen in the air intake of the vehicle to increase fuel efficiency.
The Biodiesel project was designed to look at the impact on fuel economy, on maintenance cost, total vehicle life cycle, emissions, when using biodiesel, (B20), ultra low sulfur diesel, and bio-hydrogen. That research has not been done before and the answers may help fleet operators, like Neidert. As soon as B20 or higher is available at a competitive price," says Neidert," I'm all for switching over. I'd switch tomorrow. I want to use green energy."
Quote from: irishbobcat on December 22, 2007, 09:28:48 AM
Some type of Mass Transit is needed to revive Youngstown......
Mass Transist from the suburbs to YSU during the week might be an option for those folks who dread winter driving to campus...
Interesting note - my son lives in Columbus and the city buses are free for the OSU students.
That is false, students are REQUIRED to pay a fee every quarter for the public buses in Columbus (COTA) whether or not they use them. It's a good deal if you're a student who doesn't have a car, but students like myself who haven't used the public buses for 3 years still have to pay the quarterly fee. Check out your son's billing statement at Ohio State.
Sorry for the mistake. My son told me that. I haven't seen a statement since his YSU undergraduate days.
He is in graduate school at OSU. He has a car but says parking is expensive, uses the bus and walks.
I looked the fees up on the OSU website and it says - $9.00 per quarter ($13.50 for semesters)
Is that correct?
Good deal if you use it. If not, I guess there is reason to gripe, similar to those that are griping about higher taxes.
$9.00 sounds about right for each quarter. Do you think a system like this would be beneficial for YSU students who currently live on campus in order for them to do shopping and attend events both in the city and its surrounding communities? YSU may try and partner with WRTA to implement a similar student fee which would only be several dollars.
In all of the discussion about WRTA, why doesn't anyone mention that the county is already paying over $5 million dollars a year to help transport clients of Jobs and Family Services? This money goes to private busing companies and cab companies. Everyone who lives in the county and thinks they aren't already subsidizing transportation for welfare recipients, should think again. The county commissioners should be backing this levy, and the only reason they aren't is because they are up for re-election, and backing this levy isn't popular in the suburbs. Allowing WRTA to take over and consolidate all of the transportation funds for the county, would make sense and show a spirit of cooperation between the county and city, something that we need desperately. Most of the message boards and posts that I read are so negative about the poor in this county, it doesn't surprise me that people would vote no for something that is a lifesaver to many people. I don't use mass transit, but I might need it in the future, and I will ask the candidates for commissioner seats where they stand on this issue.
We must improve mass transit - busses and trains are the way that many people get to work - and that number is expected to grow over 40% in the next 10 years according to a national study. But, as fuel prices rise, the cost of running mass transit grows too. As your next state representative, I would work with the city bus system in partnering with Youngstown State University to look for green solutions to powering mass transit and help reduce costs to riders and taxpayers. This is already taking shape in Toledo with the University of Toledo and their RTA.
Dennis Spisak-Independent Green Party Candidate for State Rep-60th District.
campaign site-Http://votespisak.tripod.com
Here are two blogs discussing the proposed WRTA sales tax.
http://youngstownmoxie.blogspot.com/2008/02/cities-aret-problem-they-are-solution.html
http://theoaklandstage.blogspot.com/2008/02/why-buses-are-important.html
Please re-read my original post - you are already p aying almost 6 million county tax dollars to subsidize private cab and transit companies to transport Jobs and family services clients to work -without a vote (unless you count your vote for count commissioner). It is more equitable to pay for this service with a sales tax - everyone pays a little, including the people who use it. Civilized societies take care of the less fortunate - and believe me, you may not need mass transit now, but you might in the future. Do you know that if you need wheelchair transportation from a private company it costs $150 round trip - and this is not covered by any insurance or medical coverage. WRTA would provide this service (which they do now for city residents or anyone who lives within 3/4 of a mile from a bus route) for $2.00 to any resident within the county. This is a win-win for the whole county - and shame on the county commissioners for not taking a stand on it one way or another.