Mahoning Valley Forum

History reveals that prior to GM busting up the trolley car business in Youngstown and all the other Cities in the country, this electric form of mass transit was entirely private and received no subsidy.  I would wager, that WRTA cost more money to operate than $5 a gallon, TAX YOURSELVES!

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on May 05, 2011, 07:11:32 AM
History reveals that prior to GM busting up the trolley car business in Youngstown and all the other Cities in the country, this electric form of mass transit was entirely private and received no subsidy.  I would wager, that WRTA cost more money to operate than $5 a gallon, TAX YOURSELVES!

Yes, and unsubsidized mass-transit couldn't compete with subsidized roads and highways.  That's why mass-transit is subsidized, (barely) today.

Prior to the establishment of the Youngstown Municipal Railway, there were three different streetcar lines serving the city and three interurban lines that came through Youngstown

Youngstown and Southern
Youngstown & Suburban
Park & Falls

Mahoning Valley Railway
Youngstown & Sharon
Mahoning and Shenango Railway and Light Company

Ads for four of the lines.

Quote from: westsider on May 05, 2011, 07:48:41 AM
Yes, and unsubsidized mass-transit couldn't compete with subsidized roads and highways.  That's why mass-transit is subsidized, (barely) today.

What exactly does this mean?

There is no type of transit, mass or otherwise that competes with roads and highways. Transit either uses roads and highways (cars, buses, etc.) or it doesn't (boats, planes, etc.).

Quote from: Why?Town on May 05, 2011, 06:01:09 PM
What exactly does this mean?

There is no type of transit, mass or otherwise that competes with roads and highways. Transit either uses roads and highways (cars, buses, etc.) or it doesn't (boats, planes, etc.).

If roads were not subsidized, the cost of driving would be much higher. (mostly because of higher gas prices--assuming the gas tax is increased to fully cover the cost of building/maintaining roads)  This would make mass-transit (even if it was also unsubsidized) more likely to be profitable, as more people would choose mass-transit to save money.  I think that's why mass-transit does well in Europe; it costs a lot to fill up over there.

Please note that I'm not suggesting we should eliminate all government subsidies.  We've been car-dependent for too long, our built environment is designed around the car, so the adjustment away from that would be nearly catastrophic.

Quote from: westsider on May 05, 2011, 07:48:41 AM
  That's why mass-transit is subsidized, (barely) today.

Yes, barely because nothing is left in the cookie jar.  Mass transit was always subsidized because the private sector was allowed to produce and generate hugh tax revenue.  Who now and what industry is producing the tax revenue the entitled are addicted too?  Right! , the private sector moved away to countries that have a smaller or no entitled class.

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on May 05, 2011, 09:36:55 PM
Yes, barely because nothing is left in the cookie jar..

ODOT doesn't seem to have too much trouble finding hundreds of millions of dollars to add extra lanes, build bridges, etc. every year.

QuoteMass transit was always subsidized because the private sector was allowed to produce and generate hugh tax revenue.

How was mass transit always subsidized? ???

BTW, thanks for the information and adds, Towntalk.

ODOT doesn't seem to have too much trouble finding hundreds of millions of dollars to add extra lanes, build bridges, etc. every year.  The state is 8 billion in the hole, the feds print money. why do you think gas is approaching $5 , it is because the Arabs no longer value the greenback.

How was mass transit always subsidized? ???  Please get educated, read the book, "Internal Combustion,"  it is the history of transportation.  Mass transits were always subsidized to a degree, it just has become more subsidized when private companies vanished.

Westsider: You're welcome, I'm sure.

Youngstownshrimp: Since the city regulated mass transet (rights-of-way; fares) right from the first horse-drawn street car that went up and down Federal Street, local government had its fingers in the industry, but the same can be said for taxi services and to an extent railroads. Even today Taxi companies have to go to City Council to get fare increases, and their meters are inspected by the city.

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on May 06, 2011, 08:05:50 AM
The state is 8 billion in the hole,

I can't back this up with a source, so take it for what it's worth.  But, I've been told, by someone I consider a reliable source, that the states budget and ODOT's budget are not connected.  So, the state's $8B deficit has no effect on ODOT's budget.

QuotePlease get educated, read the book, "Internal Combustion,"  it is the history of transportation.  Mass transits were always subsidized to a degree, it just has become more subsidized when private companies vanished.

I may read the book.  However, you are making the claim that mass-transit was always subsidized to some degree.  So, it is up to you to explain how.  (anyway, weren't you the one who brought up the electric trolley system that was completely private and unsubsidized? ???)

Westside, good you are debating rationally.  The message I am trying to get across from my initial post is that mass transit will work economically and efficiently if the free market runs it.  In addition, the WRTA without any denial is very expensive to operate under a public sector entity, as they say government can't run anything sufficiently.  Let the free market in on an even level, and mass transit will become a competitive industry.

Greyhound and Mega Bus

I realize they travel from city to city.  Do they operate without any public support?

Greyhound Lines

Everything you want to know about Greyhound and a lot more that you could care less about knowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_Lines#Notable_Incidents_and_Accidents

Quote from: Youngstownshrimp on May 06, 2011, 09:38:15 PM
Westside, good you are debating rationally.  The message I am trying to get across from my initial post is that mass transit will work economically and efficiently if the free market runs it.  In addition, the WRTA without any denial is very expensive to operate under a public sector entity, as they say government can't run anything sufficiently.  Let the free market in on an even level, and mass transit will become a competitive industry.

I don't disagree.  But, the message I'm trying to get across is that the transportation playing field is already heavily stacked in favor of private personal transportation, because roads are also subsidized.

For example, if every highway was a toll road, where the tolls truly covered the full cost of building, maintaining, and patrolling, don't you think more people would weigh the cost and decide that it might be cheaper to take privately owned public transportation--where the cost of those same tolls are divided between all the passengers--instead of driving their own car? (or even a complete alternative, like a privately owned train)

http://subsidyscope.org/transportation/highways/funding/
http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/01/04/actually-highway-builders-roads-don%E2%80%99t-pay-for-themselves/
http://amconmag.com/article/2010/aug/01/00023/

Quote from: westsider on May 07, 2011, 09:34:54 AM
the message I'm trying to get across is that the transportation playing field is already heavily stacked in favor of private personal transportation, because roads are also subsidized.

The public roads are in place for the benefit of every vehicle, private or otherwise. They give equal access to all and therefore cannot possibly benefit one over the other. It's basically a level playing field regarding roads.



But I do have to ask, stacked towards private personaly transportation vs. what?

Quote from: Why?Town on May 07, 2011, 10:36:52 AM

The public roads are in place for the benefit of every vehicle, private or otherwise. They give equal access to all and therefore cannot possibly benefit one over the other. It's basically a level playing field regarding roads.



But I do have to ask, stacked towards private personaly transportation vs. what?

Vs. mass transit.

You're only talking about cars and buses.  How do trains, and trolleys (or any vehicle that doesn't travel on rubber tires) benefit from roads?

But let's look at cars and buses.  Let's say that every person, through property taxes, contributes 5 cents per mile for roads. (this is a theoretical number.  I don't know what the real number is.)  A car with one person driving one mile contributes 5 cents to travel that mile.  But, a bus with 30 passengers contributed $1.50 to travel that same mile.  Why do the 30 people riding the bus have to pay 30x more for the same service as the person in the car?  That's not equal.

I don't think toll roads charge by number of passengers. The tickets the turnpike uses have vehicle classes and prices but no mention of occupants.

Quote from: Why?Town on May 07, 2011, 06:44:42 PM
I don't think toll roads charge by number of passengers. The tickets the turnpike uses have vehicle classes and prices but no mention of occupants.

I wasn't talking about toll roads in my previous reply.

I think you have it Westsider.  I have an advantage over what is normal here, growing up in Asia, public transportation is provided by private concerns and most utilize it, there really is no need for a car, my parents sold our car after a year , because public transportation more than handled our needs.  Funny, my brother who is about to retire as a Boeing engineer, recently invested in several passenger light trucks and Trikes as shown below.

ARE THE TRIKES MODERN DAY RICKSHAWS?

Quote from: iwasthere on May 09, 2011, 12:04:09 PM
ARE THE TRIKES MODERN DAY RICKSHAWS?

They are economical and more green than they can get right now. I believe all productive people are green, they are just not hypocrites and wish one day that we develop over-unity.