Mahoning Valley Forum

I read an article about low powered FM radio in today's newspaper.

This is a link for additional information.
http://www.prometheusradio.org (http://www.prometheusradio.org)

Would this work in Youngstown?

Yes. Youngstown could use a low powered station that could provide information, music, and discussions no longer offered on today's commercial radio stations. Does anyone on this forum know any individuals with radio knowledge and broadcasting experience that might be able to look into this endevor?

We used to have one person with that experience.  I'm not sure if another member has those talents.

I would like to have a low powered FM radio station on the west side.

On the link you provided suggests the station could have a broadcast range of 10 miles. That should be enough power to cover all parts of Youngstown. I would like to see someone or some group look into this situation.

This possibility should be mentioned at city block watch meetings.  Maybe a coalition of block watches could apply for a low powered FM radio license.

I went to the site and a low power station could cover all of Youngstown. However, the cost could be anywhere from the $5,000-$20,000 range to pull it off. Unfortunately I believe many community groups would have trouble raising this kind of capital.

Imagine this.  ::)

We could have Forum Radio if our members chipped in around $100 each.

;D

I discussed low powered FM with several people this week.  Most people like the idea and would like to see it happen in Youngstown.   A station with a downtown location could cover the entire city.

Maybe some community group could get money just like the Lemon Grove. ;D

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/low-power-fm-broadcast-radio-stations-lpfm (http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/low-power-fm-broadcast-radio-stations-lpfm)

they could put the antenna on the roof of the Parkway Tower apartment building on Park
Avenue - right next to the cell phone antennas  (forgive me Im just being sarcastic
about the owners of the building)


:)

A YouTube video with some information about low power FM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_gFYKGMO5Y

A group is now forming to study and possibly start a low powered FM radio station.

I wish them well, provided they follow all the rules that the FCC has regarding this class of broadcasting. Yes, it is regulated just like other forms of broadcasting ... see my earlier post linking to the FCC.
Most LPFM stations are owned by churches and schools according to the list of LPFM stations already on the air according to the FCC listing.

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=&serv=FL&vac=&list=1 (http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=&serv=FL&vac=&list=1)

The allowable coverage for all LPFM stations is 3.5 square miles using a 100 watt transmitter firing a 100 foot high tower antenna so how much of Youngstown can be covered.By the way that 100 foot tower must be on the ground as opposed to having it placed on a tall building.

QUESTION FOER JAY
According to the United States Census Bureau Youngstown is 34.60 square miles.
According to the FCC a LPFM stations coverage area can not exceed 3.5 square miles.
Just where in the 34.60 sq. miles would this LPFM station be located?
Since a LPFM station can't sell commercial time, how would it be financed?
Obviously such a station would be limited as to it's listener base to the 3.5 square miles.
Here is what the FCC says:
The Low Power FM (LPFM) radio service was created by the Commission in January 2000. LPFM stations are authorized for noncommercial educational broadcasting only (no commercial operation) and operate with an effective radiated power (ERP) of 100 watts (0.1 kilowatts) or less, with maximum facilities of 100 watts ERP at 30 meters (100 feet) antenna height above average terrain (HAAT). The approximate service range of a 100 watt LPFM station is 5.6 kilometers (3.5 miles radius). LPFM stations are not protected from interference that may be received from other classes of FM stations. A construction permit is required before an LPFM station can be constructed or operated. The mere filing of an LPFM application does not authorize any construction or operation.
Potential applicants are advised that there is almost always competition for any type of radio broadcast station -- including LPFM stations -- and there is no guarantee that filing an acceptable application will result in the grant of a construction permit. Applications for LPFM stations may only be filed during specified filing periods announced by the FCC, and must be filed electronically on FCC Form 318 (no paper applications will be accepted). Many applicants retain legal and engineering counsel to help them prepare an acceptable application. (The FCC does not maintain a list of legal and engineering firms, and cannot recommend any individual or firm.)

 The window for filing for a LPFM license is from October 15, 2013 to October 29, 2013 and MUST be done electronically only. Applications filed before October 15 or after October 29 will NOT be considered.

If the group fails to meet the window, it will have to wait 10 years before a new window is established by the FCC.

I was told the group has a person researching the ins and outs of this process. If the groups wants to look into this venture they should have no problem getting their application filed with the tiny window.

I also wish them well.  It's going to be a learning process.  At this point, I wonder where the money will come from to set up the station and then run it on a day to day basis.

The money issue will need to be addressed but not right away. Once the license is granted they will have up to say 2-4 years to get the station on the air. They could use that window to fund raise, seek grants, etc. This window would also give them the time to write up a budget plan to see exactly what the cost would entail.

Good question Jay.
If the group is a school or church they could have in house funding, but if not, I suspect that they would have to be on the air for a limited time each day and have a web site that could fill in the rest of the time, but still with a limited coverage area of 3.5 square miles they would have a limited base to draw donations from.
The best area to locate in would be the West Side and the second best would be the North Side depending on their format ie. the type of programs they would air.

All three commercial TV Towers are located on the South Side - would that be a good place ?

So are all the commercial FM towers and these are the ones that pose the greatest problem for LPFM stations. This is one of the problems with LPFM stations ... bleedover from high powered commercial FM stations. The bandwith for LPFM is small so there are few choices of where they will be located on the dial, and there is no guarintee that they will not be subject to interference from commercial FM stations in the area.

I was told there is only 1 frequency available in Youngstown, 107.5FM.

One of the things I would like to have a low powered FM radio station do is cover city council meetings live.

That would only take up about 5 minutes of air time.   ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx5jSNf3l-c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx5jSNf3l-c)

Covering City Council would be a good idea but the big question is the means to do a live remote broadcast on LPFM. Standard AM FM stations feed their remotes via sattalite to the studio, and that costs money, and remotes from places like Council chambers are not equipped space wise to accomidate a complete LPFM setup.
Even when the local stations were doing broadcasts of Council meetings back in the day, the meetings were taped and broadcast later.
A LPFM station could follow this format easily and with less cost to the station, and would be welcome.
By the way a typical setup for broadcasting City Council would require at least 5 microphones based on a photograph I have in my archives of a broadcast council meeting and a professional tape recorder or today's equivelent.
When the radio stations covered Council meetings they were aired each Monday night that Council was in session:

WFMJ - 9:00 pm to 9:45 pm
WKBN - 11:30 pm to 12:00 pm
By 1952 only WKBN aired Council meetings each Tuesday night from 10:30 to 11:00 PM
By 1955 no station aired Council meetings.

Mike positions

An LPFM station could use live audio streaming over an internet connection between council chambers
and their studio, and also to a website, for those who are out of range of the radio station.


Video could also be streamed.   Very easy and very doable.

All this is well and good Jay, but listen a minute. The application for a LPFM station will be coming up this October and has only a small window, and once that window is closed no more applications will be considered for 10 years, and this comes straight from the FCC, so the group you are referring to had better get their act together and have all their ducks in a row to meet that small window, and be certain that their application is prepared by an attorney that knows his stuff because they will have only one shot this time around.
In the meantime, everyone here supports their efforts, but until they do get a license all our chatter is useless, but there is absolutely nothing we can do to move the process on.
If we knew who the folks are who want to start the station here, then there may be ways that we could help them with the financing, but you do not want to say just who they are, so this whole thread boils down to a hypothetical exercise.

Allan, I didn't think of that ... using the internet for remotes, but then there is the question about just how the connection would be made. Would the City be willing to install the connections that would be needed? A suggestion would be Road Runner. Then there is the question of broadcast quality. When the radio stations were broadcasting Council meetings they needed 5 microphones, and most mikes that are available on the market for computer use can not match the microphones used by radio stations, and broadcast mikes can't be adapted for use with computers on the fly. I'm not certain of how commercial stations stream their programs using their professional gear but I do know that the standard broadcast mike is not compatable with most computers.
Good professional microphones cost anywhere from $1000.00 to $3000.00 each ... then there is the question of who would foot the bill for Road Runner or whatever ISP was used?
I'm sure that Council wouldn't want to foot the bill for a service that would only be used when council is in session.

It is my understanding that any group could log on to watch the webinars.  It is a learning process at this time.  If a group finds to process too difficult or does not have the resources to set up a station, then they will not apply for a low power FM license.  If a group watches the webinars and feels they have the resources to make a station work, then they should apply for the license.  Perhaps no one for this area will apply at all.

I'm sure City Hall already has wireless internet inside the building.

There would be no need to run cables into the council chambers, just fire up
any decent laptop or tablet device - and BINGO.  A couple of USB webcams and
some bluetooth for audio and away you go...

 http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=FM&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=620477 (http://www.fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=FM&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=620477)


http://www.wcrsfm.org/ (http://www.wcrsfm.org/)



http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/piratejim/lpfm4.html (http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/piratejim/lpfm4.html)

List of the LPFM stations can be found here.

Tell me Allan. Most modern mikes require close up use while older mikes positioned correctly could cover a whole room such as the mike I use for my logo. Please tell me what model microphone specifically used on computers could be used in Council Chambers and pick up talk from any part of the room with equal quality?

Two examples:

http://www.homerecorder.com/product.php?pid=473 (http://www.homerecorder.com/product.php?pid=473)
http://www.homerecorder.com/product.php?pid=26 (http://www.homerecorder.com/product.php?pid=26)

Both are ribbon mikes which are superior to condenser mikes because they are omnidirectional with a figure 8 pattern.

sorry but I am no expert on audio mics.  There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of
makes/models of computer microphones out there.  As far as the best overall solution, it
would probably be best if they used a separate, noise cancelling mic for each council member,
plus one wide area mic for the audience, attendees, so that everyone's audio could be captured

I use Skype to conference with some developers overseas from time to time and the audio quality
is incredibly good...crisp, clear and clean virtually every time - even with an el cheapo generic microphone

The ribbon mikes I cited are for computer use yet have the quality of regular broadcast mikes in that they can be located in 5 locations as illistrated in the second photo.
Ribbon mikes are ideal in that being omnidirectional 2 mikes can do for all 7 councilmen, 1 for the Clerk, 1 for the Council President, 1 for the other city officials and 1 for public comment. A small mixer board tied to a laptop would be used by station personal.
Most people today are ignorent when it comes to ribbon mikes, because they think that they have to place the mike right up against their mouth, but that's totally wrong, and can damage the ribbon. These mikes are super sensitive and by controling it from the mixer they will pick up everythng just fine.

http://www.wesdooley.com/ (http://www.wesdooley.com/)

Newspaper article on Toledo's efforts to land a low powered FM radio station:

http://www.toledocitypaper.com/September-Issue-2-2013/Good-Morning-Lucas-County/ (http://www.toledocitypaper.com/September-Issue-2-2013/Good-Morning-Lucas-County/)

The next low power FM webinar is Monday, September 16, 2013 - 7pm EST.

DEADLINE .... OCTOBER 15, 2013 - OCTOBER 27, 2013 ... AFTER THAT NO MORE APPLICATIONS WILL BE ACCEPTED BY THE FCC PERIOD FOR 10 YEARS ... NO EXCEPTIONS.
So EXACTLY how far has this group gone toward filing their application? Or is this all talk like many of the other projects that have poped up from time to time?
It would be great IF some group were seriously enough to put their MONEY where their dreams are, and I would support them, BUT until I know more about THE GROUP that wants to start a LPFM station there's NOTHING that we can do to make it happen, since ONLY THE FCC can make it happen AND IN THE LICENSING PROCESS, THE FCC DOES NOT SEEK PUBLIC INPUT.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a LPFM station here, and as a regular feature say on Sundays a look back at old time radio programs, say from 6:00 pm to 11:00 pm. I have some 5400 old time radio shows in my personal library, and there are thousands more available of all sorts ... comedy; mystery, drama, westerns, thrillers, variety that folks under 40 have never heard, that paved the way for the sort of TV shows we enjoy today. But I also know that we can't sit around talking about it. It requires a significant investment, and a staff of professionals in broadcasting, for just because it is LPFM doesn't mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry can run the station, and it requires a licensed engeneer to run the transmitter. LPFM after all is over the air broadcasting and subject to the same rules as a commercial station.

Anyone can put together an internet station that isn't governed by the FCC, but LPFM is a whole different animal, and running a station doesn't come cheap, and absent commercials to help defray the costs, all the support will have to come from donations from the listeners, and FCC rules ban LPFM stations from selling commercial time.

QuoteLPFM after all is over the air broadcasting and subject to the same rules as a commercial station.

Quoteand FCC rules ban LPFM stations from selling commercial time.

Being relegated to 100 watts is very restrictive in itself.  Not being allowed to sell commercials makes it very very difficult to run a small lpfm station.   I'm sure these restriction were made to keep the big boys happy.

I could agree with you to a certain extent. But, what you overlook is the fact that there are grants available to help fund LPFM stations, plus the fact that there is listener donations as with PBS/NPR stations. The cost of operating a LPFM station is not as high as with a higher class FM station, for the only payed employees at a LPFM station would be the manager, the program director and the chief engineer (As with higher class stations a FCC licensed engineer must be on duty throughout the entire broadcast day at LPFM stations) but on air personal don't need a license so long as they do not operate the master control board.

It should be noted that while there is no protection for a LPFM station from bleedover from other FM stations the FM stations are protected from interference from a LPFM station.
It also must be remembered that there are other class stations that can not run commercials such as stations as WYSU, so te FCC isn't just picking on LPFM stations.

The last Low Power FM webinar is Wednesday, September 18, 6:00 p.m. EST