Why Not Ohio? Indiana gets Electric Car Plant

[Youngstownshrimp]

Yea, the snow was deep but my 4X4 moved thru it with no problem.  I had my electrician at the warehouse and it was too cold this morning to get back to the trackhoe.  I did however come back in the afternoon with the two charged batteries and yea, the beast started right up.  So I relieved some blog stress and tore out two fence post so the dump can get back to the gravel.  George at Papa's says business is picking up from the local business around there.  You were right that area seems to be progressing with small business.

[Rick Rowlands]

I stopped by the Tod Engine Heritage Park just a little while ago. I can barely get on the property, had to use the jeep with 4WD  just to go up the driveway. 

If you get over there today pull out that other battery, take it home and put it on charge.  I think we had talked about getting a new set of batteries as well.  Might be the thing to do so we aren't plagued by dead batteries come spring when we need to use the hoe every day.  Still have to check the voltage out of the alternator and find that power drain, but don't feel bad, my pickup now has a power drain that killed my battery two days ago!

Winter brings out a whole new set of problems to deal with!

[Youngstownshrimp]

Rick,

Weather looks good to go out slummin', I hope the trackhoe cranks, I'll try it in the morning.

You are astute and well read, the book "Internal Combustion" is a superb history of transportation and mentioned the crossroads wherein man chose combustion versus electrons.  In a nutshell, going back to "I" , will definitely increase efficiency but the 64 million $ question will always be that we still will create current, by converting energy by combustion or radiation or hydro, a little solar, and wind.   Until we harnes gravity or grasp vacuum, it's the law of thermo dynams man!  we will only convert in a carbon manner. 

In the interim, my next vehicle is definitely going to be a CNG truck and by that time I'll take fuel from natural gas coming out of the eastside and not bum$#*# Egypt.

[Rick Rowlands]

Dan,  I post to several other forums, most of which engage in discussions way deeper than what is discussed here.  I find this forum to basically repeat the same stuff day in and day out.  Jay makes observations and asks questions but supplies no answers, irishbobcat regurgitates news releases and adds "Why not Ohio" to the bottom of his posts, Youngstownshrimp, Sarge and I argue conservatism while Rusty River and iwasthere argue liberalism.  Occasionally a couple of others will chime in with some good solid information, but thats the exception.

If you want to read some good in depth discussions, go to www.practicalmachinist.com, especially the Manufacturing in USA forum.  I've only made 700 posts here, over there I'm over 2,500.

[Dan Moadus]

I must say, this is one of the most informative threads I've read. Thanks.

[woozle]

Thanks Rick... no need for me to add to the confusion here..LOL Anyway my point is people in general screw around with their cars.. Or they are too cheep to take them to a repair shop.. So I can't wait to see reports of backyard hacks or some diy guy getting cooked..  High Voltage!!! Danger

And then you have the Batt to deal with, they can only be charged so many times before they are useless.. I still say it's not the way of the future.. Short lived Band aid...

Allan better check on that transmission theroy you have there.. They are still using them.. they are a big part of the operation of the system..

[AllanY2525]

Why?Tiown,

Naybe the hybrid uses a power inverter to achieve three phase AC from the DC
voltage in the battery pack?

For those not technically inclined, a power in verter takes a low voltage DC
source and makes a higher voltage AC output from it.  It uses step-up
transformers instead of step-down transformers.

The DC voltage is fed through solid state (ie: switching transistors) circuitry that
generates a modified AC sine wave which is then passed through the step-up.
The modified AC sine wave is not a perfect wave like the AC power we get at
home, but close enough to run most home appliances without issues, incouding
computer hardware, stereo quipment, lights, etc.

I use them in my work truck, as well as in my camper.

The elecric motors in hybrids are also generators - that is, they can produce
electricity as well as use it to move the car.  This is one way the hybrids
achieve such high energy efficiency.

Ever driven a stick-shift car down a long hill and shifted to a lower gear to
help slow down the vehicle?   With truckers, this practice is known as "engine
braking".

Well, hybrids use what is called "regenerative braking".  When the normal brakes
are applied to slow the car down, the electric motor onboard is switched into
generator mode and used to help slow the car - thereby recycling the kinetic
energy (energy of motion) and converting it back into electricity, which is sent
back into the vehicles battery to help recharge it.  This also extends the life
of the brake pads, and reduces the amount of asbestos released into the
atmosphere from the brake systems on these cars.

When the driver steps on the gas pedal again, the electric motor returns to
being a motor to help the car accelerate.

They Chevy Cruze and Volt are what I like to think of as "Hybrid 2.0" cars - until
the battery pack is run down, the car can drive solely on electricity, so short trips
use no gasoline at all.

Unlike current hybrids, you can plug the car into an electrical outlet at home
to charge the battery, and the electric motor in the car is the only thing
that actually drives the wheels to move the vehicle - the small onboard gasoline
engine is only used to recharge the battery when it gets low.

Now, here's the big savings with the Cruz and teh Volt - in their all electric
mode of operation, they can go about 40 miles before the onboard generator
starts up to charge the battery.  GM engineers estimage that it takes about
eighty eight cents worth of electricity to charge the battery at home, so in
effect you get 40 miles of driving for less than a buck !

Another cool thing about the design for these cars - there is no need for a
transmission, since electric motors are infinitely variable in speed there is no
need for different gear ranges between the engine and the wheels.

This lightens the vehicles considerably, which leads to even better mileage.

[Why?Town]

Thanks Rick,

I understand the basics of three phase, not quite clear about how it becomes the 3 wire single phase that enters our houses, but since I don't work with it I never persued it farther.

Where my confusion lies is how you get three phase from a DC battery pack.

About those pictures you posted, I can't quite make out the text but they appear to be series hybrids with a motor for each rear wheel. Quite interesting.

Another early hybrid was built in the late 90s, 1890s that is, by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, the man behind the VW Beetle as well as the Porsche Motor Company. His hybrids used a motor in hub design. Here's a link with a couple of pictures.

http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-vehicle-porsche.html

[Rick Rowlands]

For those of you who think that hybrids are new technology.  They were building them way back in '02.  1902 that is!






The original publication is at the Youngstown Historical Center of Industry and Labor.

[Rick Rowlands]

If the plant would have been built in Ohio instead, Dennis's alter ego in Indiana would be writing "Why not Indiana?" 

Three phase is an electrical term.  All AC electrical power in the grid is three phase.  What that means is that there are three wires.  Each wire reverses polarity 60 times per second. If you look at an oscilloscope it looks like a wave.  The polarity changes do not happen simultaneously in the three wires but are separated by 120 degrees, or 1/3.  Three phase power is the optimum form of electricity for operating motors and can be split into single phase which is what is fed into your house.  In your house you have one wire and a neutral.  Your house is being fed off of one leg of the three phase mains.  Look up on the pole. You'll see three wires on the crossarms, and a smaller wire beneath or above them.  Now note that where there are transformers one of the three wires feeds the transformer as does that smaller wire.  The transformer takes the 3,000 or so volts on the crossarm and turns it into 220 volts which is fed into your house.  That 220 is further split into two halves, each carrying 110 volts.  The entire system must be balanced so that there are nearly equal loads on each leg of the three phase.  So the transformer in front of your house may tap off of one of the three wires, but the next one a few poles down will tap off another of the three, and so on.  Some places such as businesses are fed three phase power directly, and in that case you will see three transformers on the pole, each one stepping down one of the legs. 

So what does that mean for electric cars?  Well remember that I stated earlier that electric motors run better on three phase power?  Three phase motors are more efficient than single phase motors and efficiency is extremely important with hybrids.  Single phase motors are quite inefficient and require capacitors to generate a "false leg" to get it started.

I hope I haven't completely confused you with this explanation!

[woozle]

could you explain what you mean by "some of the new cars are Three Phase"?

I could explane it too you but it would be hard to get you to understand. I'll go home tonight and Scan some of my Books from my class...

[woozle]

Hybrid cars, which combine a gasoline engine with a battery-powered electric motor, are good for the earth because they suck up less gas and spit out less pollution.

But are they good for your wallet?

A hybrid, such as the Toyota Prius, Honda Insight and Honda Civic, costs anywhere from $3,500 to $6,000 more than a comparable conventional car. Despite ultra-impressive gas mileage, you'll have a tough time making up the price difference at the pump.

And that doesn't include any additional maintenance costs or the possibility that you may have trouble reselling the vehicle.

On the other hand, you do get a substantial tax break by purchasing a hybrid car.

Gas matters

Let's start by comparing the gasoline costs of driving a $20,000 Civic Hybrid with a $16,500 Civic LX. The Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission gets an impressive gas mileage of 46 miles per gallon in the city and 51 mpg on the highway. The Civic LX gets 32 mpg in the city and 38 mpg on the highway.

We'll use city mileage figures for both cars because that's the mileage estimate most drivers are likely to achieve. Let's say gas is $1.75 per gallon and you drive 15,000 miles every year.

Will you be able to rack up $3,500 in fuel cost savings with your Civic Hybrid? Not unless you plan on keeping the car forever.

Driving a Civic Hybrid, instead of a Civic LX, will trim your fuel costs by about $250 a year.

After five years, you'd save $1,250 at the pump. After 10 years, you'd save $2,500. After 15 years you'd save $3,750, finally just over your $3,500 goal.

Let's take a closer look at the numbers.

To drive 15,000 miles in a year with a Civic Hybrid, you'll need to pump in about 326 gallons of gas. Pay $1.75 a gallon and your yearly fuel costs will run about $571.

To drive 15,000 miles in a year with a Civic LX, you'll need to pump in more than 469 gallons of gas. Pay $1.75 for each gallon and your yearly fuel costs will run about $821, just $250 more than the Civic Hybrid.

Of course, the more gas prices go up, the more money you'll save driving a Civic Hybrid instead of conventional Civic.

So let's say gas prices shoot up to $2 gallon. Yearly fuel expenses with a Civic LX will run about $938 compared with $652 for a Civic Hybrid. That's a savings of $286 a year. After five years of high fuel prices you'd save $1,430. But you're still a long way from recouping the extra $3,500 you paid for your environmentally friendly set of wheels. Helping the earth can be hard on your wallet.

Applying the tax breaks

A one-time federal tax deduction of $2,000 may help soften the blow. Any car shopper who purchases a new hybrid through 2003 is eligible for the full tax deduction. A smaller deduction will be available through 2006.

"It's a laudable attempt by the federal government to get you to buy a fuel-efficient vehicle," says Bob Trinz, an editor of RIA's Federal Taxes Weekly Alert.

Just how much the deduction will save you on your 2003 taxes depends on your tax bracket. A hybrid owner in the 35 percent tax bracket would knock $700 off their tax bill. Someone in the 28 percent tax bracket would save $560. A hybrid owner in the 25 percent tax bracket would save $500.

Fuel-efficient tax breaks
Federal
tax rate 2003 tax savings
for hybrid car owner
15% $300
25% $500
28% $560
33% $660
35% $700

Even a hybrid owner who takes a standard deduction on their taxes will qualify for this deduction.

"You need not itemize to claim this," Trinz says. "It's commonly described as an above-the-line tax deduction."

The above-the line tax breaks are at the bottom of the first page of the long Form 1040. You claim the one for your hybrid car on the line that instructs you to total all adjustments to your income; be sure to write the words "clean fuel" next to your deduction amount.

Some states offer tax breaks to hybrid car buyers, as well, so ask your state's tax department about hybrid cars. It could save you some serious cash on a state tax bill.

But a lot of car shoppers who would consider buying a hybrid aren't bothered by the extra costs, according to a recent survey by J.D. Power and Associates, a marketing information and research firm based in Agoura Hills, Calif.

It's the ecology, stupid

Lots of folks say they would go forward with a hybrid purchase if they could recover at the gas pump just half of the additional cost.

For example, they'd be willing to shell out $3,500 more for a Civic Hybrid as long as they could save $1,750 in gas expenses while they owned the car. A Hybrid owner who drives 15,000 miles a year could achieve that goal after five years with the help of the one-time federal tax deduction.

Why do people seem willing to take a bit a financial hit when purchasing a hybrid car?

"They want to do the right thing for the environment. They want to be seen participating in that effort," says Thad Malesh, a director of the alternative power technology practice at JD Power.

Thanks to impressive fuel efficiency and squeaky-clean emissions, hybrid cars are much kinder to the environment than traditional cars.

For example, the Toyota Prius is 90 percent cleaner than the average new 2003 model year car, according to the California Air Resources Board. This five-passenger sedan is considered a Super Ultra Low-Emission Vehicle (SULEV). And with a gas mileage of 52 mpg in the city and 45 mpg on the highway, you'll be able drive quite some time before you even have to think about refueling.

The 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid falls under the Ultra Low-Emission Vehicle (ULEV) category, which isn't too shabby either. A ULEV is about 50 percent cleaner than the average new 2003 model year car.

And while many 2003 cars fall under this category, it's tough to top Civic Hybrid's gas mileage of 46 mpg in the city and 51 mpg on the highway. A Civic Hybrid is about 30 percent more fuel efficient than a conventional, gas-powered Civic.

As for the Honda Insight, this little two-seater is the most fuel- efficient car in the country hands down. Its gas mileage is an impressive 60 mpg in the city and 66 mpg on the highway. Its automatic model, which comes with a continuously variable transmission, has been certified as a SULEV vehicle.

Can you afford a cleaner ride?

Still, as good as these cars may be for the environment, you do need to consider the long-term impact on your wallet. Here's some financial questions even the most stringent environmentalist should consider before purchasing a hybrid.

Can you and your family afford to spend an extra $3,500 to $6,000 upfront on a new car?

Hybrids by the numbers
Car Description Gas mileage MSRP
Honda Insight 2-passenger hatchback 60 mpg city
66 mpg hwy
starting at $19,180
Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger sedan 46 mpg city
51 mpg hwy
starting at $19,650
Toyota Prius 5-passenger sedan 52 mpg city
45 mpg hwy
starting at $20,480
Source: Honda, Toyota

How long do you plan to keep the car? The resale value of a used hybrid is a big question mark. It's possible you could take another financial hit when you sell a hybrid car. If you're not prepared to keep a hybrid car for the long haul you may want to think twice about purchasing one.

Can you afford the repairs? A key concern for long-term hybrid owners is maintenance costs. If you keep a car beyond warranty, you'll be stuck with the repair bills and they could get expensive.

"At some point the batteries are going to have to be replaced and they're expensive," says Larry Webster, a technical editor at Car and Driver. "The cost could be anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000."

The hybrid parts in a Toyota Prius, including batteries, are covered by an eight-year, 100,000-mile warranty. Honda covers its hybrid systems with an eight-year, 80,000-mile warranty.

So in your ninth year as a car owner, you'll be on the hook for any hybrid repairs in addition to the car's ordinary maintenance costs.

[Why?Town]

could you explain what you mean by "some of the new cars are Three Phase"?

[woozle]

Bob,
  My question to you and all the other Greene's here, What do we do with the batteries when they die?? throw them in a land fill?? this technology has not been perfected yet and has a long way to go.. People neglect the cars they drive now, I don't see this as being any different in the future..... I'm certified to work on the hybrid cars and I think they are crap, By the time you get your moneys worth, you will have double, or triple the cost of a gasoline car.. Eco friendly??? I think not.. it's all a hoax, I'm looking forward to people sending there cars to the backyard guy, and he cooks himself to death. some of the new cars are Three Phase.. I can get any car to get 30 MPG or better, It's all in how you maintain and tune your automobile, You get what you pay for, Buy cheep parts get crap results, spend a little extra and your money will go alot further for you..

[irishbobcat]

Why Not Ohio? Indiana gets Electric Car Plant

An AP report last week that Indiana is receiving an electric car plant. Why not Ohio?

Every midwestern state is beating Ohio and bringing new jobs to help curb their high unemployment numbers, except Ohio.  These are the new blue-green jobs Ohio needs for the 21st century.

According to the AP,  An electric car maker plans to open a factory in a northern Indiana plant that once made parts for recreational vehicles.

State and local officials planned to join executives from Think North America for an official announcement last Tuesday. The plant in Elkhart will be Think North America's first in the U.S. and provide much-needed jobs in a city that has been struggling since the RV industry collapsed during the recession.

Think North America, a subsidiary of Norwegian-based Think Global, projects its new factory could have 415 full-time jobs by 2013. Think Global currently makes its compact, two-door electric passenger cars at a plant in Finland.

The company began looking in Elkhart after negotiations broke down last week with the owner of a property in the nearby town of Middlebury, said Tom Kemeny, Think North America's chief financial officer.

The Elkhart City Council gave initial approval Monday night to a 10-year tax abatement plan for the company.

Gov. Mitch Daniels was to take part in the formal announcement Tuesday afternoon at the former facility for Philips Products, which made doors and windows for the RV industry. That plant, which had about 250 workers, closed last summer.

Barkley Garrett, the city's economic development director, said city officials worked through the weekend to complete the deal with the company after it ended talks for the Middlebury site.

"We're not poaching other communities' projects," Garrett said. "We knew our site was a backup site. We were not involved in negotiations until they contacted us."

Two other companies are working on plans to make electric vehicles in nearby Wakarusa.

Navistar International Corp. plans to build all-electric delivery trucks this year with a $39 million federal grant. Startup Electric Motors Corp. (OOTC:EMCO) intends to make electric-hybrid drive trains to be installed in various vehicles, starting with a joint venture with Gulf Stream that would make light-duty electric trucks.

Elkhart County's unemployment rate peaked in March at 18.9 percent but has fallen steadily since, hitting 14.5 percent in November.

"I don't think it makes any difference who gets this company or where they go as long as they go in Elkhart County," County Council President John Leatherman said. "What we're trying to build here is an electric car cluster, which is really a new diversification for this economy."

Why not Ohio?