Difference Between Conservatives and Liberals

[Dan Moadus]

Steve, I think you're missing my point. I think V&M would have built here even if they had to pay for the clean up. Don't tell me they were prepared to spend 650 million but not 670 million.

Also, thanks for all the fine math, but you're still overlooking one vital point. The government spent 20 million, but V&M spending 650 million does not mean the government is receiving it.

[Dan Moadus]

Are you kidding, Girard barely has enough money to clean the streets much less industrial land. It's been in "Fiscal Emergency" since 2001.

[Towntalk]

Are you the reason why Girard didn't have the money to clean up the Girard portion of the land?

[Dan Moadus]

Got to love you liberals. We're never "spending", we're "investing".

[Dan Moadus]

How about do the math for me Steve. Let's see the government invested 20 million, and according to you they will get a 3,150 % return. So how much money will the government be getting back?

[AllanY2525]

Dan,

For starters:

1-  Lead
2-  Arsenic
3-  Toluene
4-  Mercury
5-  Various petroleum-related toxins and pollutants
6-  PCB's
7-  Asbestos
8 - Dioxins

There are others... but after seeing the first several, I didn't bother to search
any further,  looking for more....  these contaminants are not going to
go away on their own - and the steel companies should have been forced
to clean up their land right when they first shuttered the mills..

The EPA at one time estimated that it could take over ten years to clean
up the Mahoning River, including the dredging out of the entire riverbed
from the beginning of the stretch of former steel mills to the opposite
end in Pennsylvania, along the river - and replacing the dredged out, toxic
river bottom material with fresh sand, stones, etc.

If you read some of Youngstown's History, the city used to draw its drinking
water from the Mahoning River - do you think it's coincidence that the city
found other sources of drinking water after the steel industry began to grow,
flourish, and use the river for their industrial plants - and promptly dump their
waste water back into the river?

And what the mills did not directly empty into the Mahoning River, seeped into
it with each and every rainfall, washed into the river from the contaminated
soil that surrounded each and every steel mill along the entire river.

Go look it up in Google....

[Towntalk]

I'll answer that question Dan, but I doubt that you will accept it.

Chemical contamination associated with steel production that was allowed to accumulate from the mid 1800's through the time when the last shift shut down operation.

Why do you think the Mahoning River became so polluted?

[Dan Moadus]

Oh, and let's not forget. That $20,000,000 million dollars wasn't extra money that was laying around. It was money that was borrowed from the Chinese and charged to your children and grand children.

[Dan Moadus]

Dan this project has been heavily covered by the local media for well over a year now. It troubles me that you didn't think it necessary to educate yourself on one of the biggest projects ever undertaken in Girard, your own backyard.
What's even more troubling is that apparently, during your years in Girard government, you did nothing to address the massive tract of abandoned and contaminated land in your city.

You state that uncertainty is the enemy of businesses. Well there was $20 million worth of uncertainly regarding that land. So YES, that nearly billion dollar project rested on the $20 million that was spent. $20 million worth of bureaucracy and red tape and regulations that V&M (or the city of Girard for that matter) didn't want to deal with.

Here is a link to an article written by an expert on energy, particularly coal and nuclear. http://www.energybulletin.net/node/49298
Notice how the title of the article is "Cap and Trade: unexpected friend to gas industry."

The fact of the matter is that the announcement to move forward with the project came soon after the ITC ruled to impose tariffs on Chinese imports of steel tubing, the very product that V&M produces. A ruling that Congressman Ryan was instrumental in bringing about.

Americans are tired of politicians who cling tooth and nail to ideologies. They want real world solutions and outcomes that are pragmatic and void of the divisive politics-as-usual. Tim Ryan got the job done. And it resulted in a 3,150% return on investment. When was the last time your business achieved these results?

Since you seem to be in the know Steve, just what was that land contaminated with, and who determined that V&M Star couldn't build a mill on it? Seems to me that Ryan's time could have been better spent working to ease up on dumb regulations that require such clean ups before building mills. Then maybe we could build many more.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Towntalk, very informative.  I always wondered who Andrews was, I believe I saw his tomb at Oakhill and not many YTown books about him.  These great industrialist in the past who made America great once, needs to be emulated.

[Towntalk]

Don't forget Chauncey Andrews who went from being a hotel clerk at his fathers hotel on West Federal to becoming the wealthiest man this city ever knew ... coal ... steel ... railroads.

His wealth wasn't handed to him by government grants ... but through hard work, but then those who hate the wealthy would call him a robber Barron.

He lived on the North Side and his family built Ursuline on that site.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Dan, your argument started out well and then took a nose dive .

First, Dan is talking about the waste and ignorant position the politicians took in a real estate deal, "suckerism".  If a property is worth 5 Mil but has a 15 Mil liabilty, it is as many foreclosure homes, upside town.  The value of the property is minus 10 Mil, as my daddy used to say about negative value, you have to pay me to take it.   Dan seems to be correct on this one, the young boys, didn't catch this.

But Danny, quickly revealed himself as not a very savy businessman, and I am not saying I am, contrary.  When Dan says a cost is not a problem if it does not affect profit, is bad business 101.  Cost , is a debt, a negative.

Now, Novotny, is beginning to cut through the "wet behind-the ears" gunk and really see how clean capitalism can work.  I wrote in past post that my next vehicle is going to be a CNG truck that I can charge up with a German made PHIL contraption in my garage.  Then I will know that the other end of the hose might be on the eastside and not  Mecca. 

[Rick Rowlands]

Steve, Do the words in the Constitution apply anymore in your opinion?  It seems to be in your way.

I don't think that Dan would oppose the notion of the State of Ohio and the City of Youngstown independently finding $20,000,000 to clean up that land.Each State and local government can do as is permitted by their organizing documents.  However, Dan is running for a Federal office, and the organizing document of that government should be adhered to.

Please Steve, tell me if it is right to spend $50,000 in government money for each of these V&M Star jobs.  Next please tell me why the government should not give me $50,000 if I hire someone tomorrow to help me full time building my museum.  Actually if the govt. would promise 50k for each new job created, within two weeks the unemployment rate in Youngstown would be 0%.

Regardless of what the leveraging effect of that $20 million is, the fact is that it is an unconstitutional use of public money.

Oh BTW, when the Butlers, Tods and Stambaughs built the original steel mill at Brier Hill, there was NO public money spent on that project at all.  It was not even an option back then.  Isn't it amazing how back then they could build 25 miles worth of integrated steel mills with private money, but today after all this "progress" it takes $20 million in public money to bribe a company to build a seamless tube mill which would have been considered a minor addition to YS&T.

[Towntalk]

First: The land in question has been industrial steel production since the mid 1800's with mills built upon mills with no effort to clean it up.

Second: I must surmise that if you were elected to Congress that you would not help local companies which makes me wonder what you would do for the average Joe Bag of Doughnuts that would need your help.

Third: Since education isn't mentioned in the Constitution I must also surmise that you would not help the colleges and universities in this district.

Just what would you do to earn your money and pension for this district?

[Dan Moadus]

Dan:

What are your comments about V&M Star and what it bodes for the valley?

No doubt, based on past comments, you wouldn't lift a finger to help in spite of the fact that the presence of the largest deposit of natural gas in America opens the door to huge possibilities for new high paying jobs throughout the district.

Naturally, I am delighted that the company decided to locate here.  You mentioned that you think that I wouldn't have lifted a finger to help, so you have a right to ask what I would have done differently had I been the Congressman. 

Here goes. First, I wouldn't have spent $20,000,000 million of tax payer's dollars to purchase and "clean" land for a private, foreign company. I don't think there is a provision in our Constitution allowing it. Beyond not being a constitutionally permitted use of tax payer's dollars consider this. If they spent $20,000,000 to create 400 jobs, it comes to $50,000 thousand per job. I have a small business that employs six people. Do you think I should be entitled to $300,000 for some expansion if I create six more jobs?

Here are a few more questions. Did anyone ever explain why it takes $20,000,000 to clean up the land? What was done to that land that requires $20,000,000 to clean up? And, is the government going to go after who ever it was that left the pollution?  And why does it have to be cleaned at all if all your going to put there is a steel mill?

Also consider this. Does anyone believe that a company that planned on spending $900,000,000 million dollars would scrap the project because it didn't want to spend $20,000,000 on land? Our $20,000,000 amounted to less than 3 percent of the project cost. Doubtful a savings of three percent made the difference in their decision to go ahead with the project.

Here is what you should understand about business. As long as a cost could be factored into a business plan without adversely effecting profits, it poses no problem. What businesses abhor is uncertainty, simply because it can not be factored in. My belief is that the most important factor to the V&M star owner's decision to locate in our country was the failure of the Cap and Trade bill. You can bet that the owners knew that the Cap and Trade bill would be costly to them. What they didn't know though, was how costly. No one is going to invest a billion dollars into an industrial plant with those unknown costs hanging over their heads. Early on, I said that you can bet that V&M Star is not going to make a decision until they find out what is going to happen with that Bill.

Tim Ryan is patting himself on the back for getting the money to clean up the land, but overlooks the fact that his "yes" vote for Cap and Trade would more than likely have been a deal killer had the Bill become law. The V&M Star folks did what my dad used to do when he bought a new car. I remember he would always say, "If you throw in the floor mats, we got a deal". He asked for that simply because he knew that would be given. It was something for free. That's what V&M Star did; they got the free floor mats.