Cowboys in City Hall?

[Rick Rowlands]

I wish there was a storm sewer on Hubbard Road to tie into.  As it is there is a river that runs down Hubbard Road whenever it rains.   I have not heard of any taxes or fees associated with stormwater runoff in Youngstown.

[rusty river]

We spent $3000 recently to have a detention pond designed for the Tod Engine Heritage Park. 

Rick, is your detention pond connected to the city's sewer system? And if so, are you required to purchase credits or are taxed for the use of city infrastructure? Just curious. I know in a lot of cities, if a developer does not have a stormwater management system that filters displaced water (due to the loss of permeable surface area) back into the ground water system and has to rely on municipal infrastructure, they are assigned fees and taxes.

[rusty river]

Detention ponds, at least all that I've seen, including the one right along my property line, are generally about 6 feet deep. BUT they don't hold more than 6 to 12 inches of water unless there's a huge amount of rain in a short period of time. They are built to continuously drain so shortly after they fill, they are nearly empty again.

They also generally don't have vertical walls so you can't plunge off the edge to your death. The walls are about 45 degree slopes from top to bottom. Picture a 6 foot hill. 15 foot wide with a 6 foot by 45 degree slope at each side leaves an area about 3 to 4 ft wide with a foot or so of water.

And how close is it to the sidewalk? Even if it's only 1 foot away, I'm sure there are other sidewalks built on top of a 6 ft hill. Heck, I remember as a kid rolling off the sidewalk and down the grass at 5th Avenue's bridge @ Crandell park.

Yes there was a screw up, no surprise there but I don't see it as a big deal to begin with and the company already said it would change the pond if the city would like.

It IS a big deal due to the location and the precedent that was set. This CVS is a sprawling suburban design being placed next to a local landmark at the edge of a designated historic district. The city had to kick and scream just to get them to move the garbage area and loading docks away from the side facing Stambaugh's flower garden. How many people want a BFI container and a delivery truck as the backdrop in their wedding pictures?

The area where the detention pond is located, right on Fifth avenue and the main gateway to the Wick Park Historic District, was supposed to be nicely landscaped. But now they've dug a 30 foot pit. Flooding is only an issue during heavy rains. Instead of a 30 foot detention pond that is 6 feet deep and requires extra infrastructure to connect to the city's sewer system, the area could have been used as a rain garden. Such stormwater management systems exhibit aesthetically pleasing landscaping, are much safer than a large open pit, effectively and naturally return stormwater into the ground, and reduce the unnecessary infrastructure upgrades and wear and tear on our city's already aging and ailing sewer systems. Plant the rain garden with plants and trees that are native to this area, and it requires next to no upkeep.

But why should we attempt to do things smarter? Why should we insist on policies that allow economic development to take place while preserving and improving the aesthetics of the neighborhood and saving our taxpayers some money? Why should city officials have to follow the rules, right?

[rusty river]

What is the first incident?

The sidewalk work around City Hall and going up Phelps to Federal. The work was done without the plans being approved by the DRC, even after they were told to present them for approval. On top of that, the company doing the work caused significant damage to one of the buildings adjacent to the replaced sidewalk.

[northside lurker]

According to the city's website, the building department and engineering department are separate entities.

The building department is having so much trouble because Brenda Williams is still out with an illness.  They have a replacement, but I'm hearing that this person (not Chuck Shasho, as I wrote in a previous thread) is rather overwhelmed.  I have a hard time understanding why they would reduce hours to 2 days per week, unless it was for budgetary concerns.

--edit--

I just saw the news item Rick was referring to, and it looks like I was off-base.  As the city's deputy director of public works, Shasho oversees the building department.

[Rick Rowlands]

We spent $3000 recently to have a detention pond designed for the Tod Engine Heritage Park. 

Didn't I just hear on the news today that the building dept. is going to a 2 day workweek?  With all their screwups, they need to work 7 days a week just to get anything done!   BTW building dept. ever find my plans yet that you claim that you conveniently "lost"?

[northside lurker]

Is a detention pond the same as a retention pond?  I've heard both terms used over the years.

A retention pond is designed to hold some water all the time.  A detention pond is just a depression in the ground that collects water when it rains.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99219.htm

[jay]

Is a detention pond the same as a retention pond?  I've heard both terms used over the years.

[Why?Town]

Detention ponds, at least all that I've seen, including the one right along my property line, are generally about 6 feet deep. BUT they don't hold more than 6 to 12 inches of water unless there's a huge amount of rain in a short period of time. They are built to continuously drain so shortly after they fill, they are nearly empty again.

They also generally don't have vertical walls so you can't plunge off the edge to your death. The walls are about 45 degree slopes from top to bottom. Picture a 6 foot hill. 15 foot wide with a 6 foot by 45 degree slope at each side leaves an area about 3 to 4 ft wide with a foot or so of water.

And how close is it to the sidewalk? Even if it's only 1 foot away, I'm sure there are other sidewalks built on top of a 6 ft hill. Heck, I remember as a kid rolling off the sidewalk and down the grass at 5th Avenue's bridge @ Crandell park.

Yes there was a screw up, no surprise there but I don't see it as a big deal to begin with and the company already said it would change the pond if the city would like.

[northside lurker]

What is the first incident?

This is why I'll never take a position with a government entity.

[Elmo-Ytown]

Take half his pay for a month, I bet he'll never make that mistake again.

6 feet deep, just what we need right by a sidewalk, this way kids don't have to walk very far to drown.

[Rick Rowlands]

Why does that not surprise me?

[rusty river]

http://www.vindy.com/news/2009/sep/23/cvs-detention-pond-raises-city-newswatch/?newswatch

This is the second time in less than a month that a city official has completely disregarded regulations and procedures in our central business district.

If we can't count on city hall to follow the rules, why should the rest of the city?