Topic: Save Public Transit

[westsider]

If your fare is paying for a substantial part of the operating costs, why then does WRTA still need all of those subsidies?

Same reason every other mass transit system (with the possible exception of NYC) in the US needs them.

I think you'll find the missing billion dollars comes from Washington. 

Here is ODOT's 2008 annual report.
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Finance/Annual%20Reports/2008%20Annual%20Statement.pdf
It looks like some of that extra does come from the federal level.  And, if I'm understanding the report correctly, ODOT has increased funding to mass transit by about $5 million. (Though, I wonder if it can be used for operating expenses.)

[Rick Rowlands]

If your fare is paying for a substantial part of the operating costs, why then does WRTA still need all of those subsidies? 

I think you'll find the missing billion dollars comes from Washington. 

[westsider]

All Rick really said is if a bus ride costs X dollars to provide, a rider should pay X dollars, not X minus whatever amount is taken from someone else.

That's what I'm saying, too.  If a car ride costs X dollars, the driver should pay X dollars, not X minus watever amount is taken from someone like me who uses the roads minimally.

Rick and many others pay for every cost related to their vehicle AND their share of the cost of the roads through taxes. 

Fuel taxes and license taxes are voluntary.  But income and sales taxes are not.  Again, ODOT's annual budget is $3.8 billion.  There are about 9 million people in Ohio over the age of 14.  If every one of them had a car, at $31 per vehicle for license taxes, that equals only $279 million.  The Ohio fuel tax is $0.28 per gallon of gas.  So, let's say that all 9 million people drive 15,000 miles a year, getting an average of 15 mpg. (15,000 / 15 = 1000 gallons per year)  1000 gallons per year x $0.28 per gallon = $280 per year in taxes.  $280 x 9,000,000 people = $2.52 billion.  $2,520 million + $279 million = $2.8 billion.  Where does that extra billion dollars come from?

You can argue about funding the roads all you want but it's missing the point.

As a mass transit user you are not even paying the complete cost of the vehicle you are riding in, not the licensing, not the insuring, not the fueling, nor the maintainence of said vehicle.

Come to think of it, if you're not covering the total cost of fuel, you really aren't even covering your share of funding the roads.

This report is over 8 years old, and some of their sources are 10 years old, but it's still worth looking at, I think.
http://ohio.sierraclub.org/files/leftbehind.pdf

According to this report, the average opertating expense for an "unlinked passenger trip" in Ohio is $2.67.  Of course fuel costs have gone up since then.  But, my fare seems to be covering a lot more of the operating costs than your posts imply.

[Why?Town]

westsider,

I still don't think you get it.

All Rick really said is if a bus ride costs X dollars to provide, a rider should pay X dollars, not X minus whatever amount is taken from someone else.

Rick and many others pay for every cost related to their vehicle AND their share of the cost of the roads through taxes. 

You can argue about funding the roads all you want but it's missing the point.

As a mass transit user you are not even paying the complete cost of the vehicle you are riding in, not the licensing, not the insuring, not the fueling, nor the maintainence of said vehicle.

Come to think of it, if you're not covering the total cost of fuel, you really aren't even covering your share of funding the roads.

[Towntalk]

ODOT is working on public transportation systems.

US DOT to review High-Speed Passenger Rail Extension from Cleveland to Pittsburgh
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/news/Pages/USDOTreviewsHi-SpeedPassRailExtfromClevtoPittsb.aspx

Passenger Trains on 3C “Quick Start” could be High-Tech, Self-Propelled, and Cost-Effective
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/news/Pages/PassengerTrainson3C%E2%80%9CQuickStart%E2%80%9DcouldbeHigh-Tech,.aspx

Ohio’s Green Public Transit Vehicle Exchange

To modernize the state’s public transit fleet and replace public transit vehicles which are beyond useful life, this investment will allow for the purchase of more than 260 cleaner, greener vehicles for Ohio’s public transit systems. This investment could also help in Ohio’s effort to attract a bus manufacturing company to the state. Ohio’s request of $75 million in TIGER Grant funds will match the $15 million in state and $3 million in local funding already dedicated to this exchange.

[westsider]

I'd be happy to have the cost to maintain the stretch of road in front of my house added to my property taxes.  That should eliminate many of the tolls.

I reference roads and highways because Rick said the fare to use mass transit should "COVER THE COST OF PROVIDING THE SERVICE."  I feel the same way about driving a car.  But, since you point out that this isn't a realistic option, I suggest that more than 1% of ODOT's $3.8 billion budget be used for mass-transit.

[Towntalk]

Westsider:

Are you prepared to pay a toll every time you leave your house to go to work or anywhere else.

The roads in early America were toll roads.

Thik about it a moment. You go to work, you pay a toll. You leave work to have lunch, you pay a toll, you leave the restaurant to go back to work, you pay a toll, you leave work to go home you pay a toll. You go to the store for groceries, you pay a toll, you leave the store to go home, you pay a toll.

Your reference to roads and highways doesn't fit in with the discussion of public transportation which I support.

If the local public transet system were to go private I'd not object in the least since the bulk of all forms of transportation are in private hands now ... bus lines ... air lines ... taxi companies ... and some railroads mainly in western America.

[westsider]

Does the existence of government run mass transit authorities eliminate the possibility of privately owned and operated mass transit services?

No.  I've seen private transit buses running around for the last year or so.  I believe they are there to fill in the gaps that the WRTA has due to funding cuts.

One thing to consider about mass transit.  It does not go everywhere.  Roads go everywhere.  For me to live in Hubbard Township I need roads, I don't have the option of mass transit where I am.

That's your choice to make.

I just got done reading a post on another forum where the writer claimed that roads and infrastructure was not a fundamental function of government.  I had not realized that the state of our educational system had become that bad. I must have been one of the last people to graduate high school before public education went to hell.

I don't know the history of funding for roads in the U.S.  But I could believe that roads are not (or were not) a fundamental function of the government.  If I were to guess, I'd say that roads were funded on the local level and privately, originally.

[Rick Rowlands]

Does the existence of government run mass transit authorities eliminate the possibility of privately owned and operated mass transit services?

One thing to consider about mass transit.  It does not go everywhere.  Roads go everywhere.  For me to live in Hubbard Township I need roads, I don't have the option of mass transit where I am.

I just got done reading a post on another forum where the writer claimed that roads and infrastructure was not a fundamental function of government.  I had not realized that the state of our educational system had become that bad. I must have been one of the last people to graduate high school before public education went to hell.

[westsider]

Here is an interesting blog article from the MVHS:
http://mahoninghistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/from-horse-car-to-bus-public.html

It appears that mass transit was privately run until 1970.

[Towntalk]

Westsider: Most of the transet systems that Rick cited went out of business decades before government haandouts. Some were transformed into railroads such as the Youngstown Southern.

Most of those systems were interurban connecting Youngstown with other towns as far away as New Castle, so if they were able to survive it wouldn't have mattered that there was a shift in population to the suburbs.

What hurt most of them was the automobile, and the decline of ridership.

Two of the systems evolved into the Youngstown Municipal Railway the forerunner of the WRTA.

The YMR had an extensive streetcar line until the 1940's when it switched to trolly buses. The last route to drop streetcars was the Campbell route.

The real decline in public transet came with the closing of the steel mills and the decline of the central business district.

[westsider]

If you're going to quote me westsider, please quote me accurately. I never said that public transportation wasn't a necessity.

Of course it is, and every time a WRTA levy came up I voted for it.

I was simply pointing out that public roads and highways are an absolute necessity. If our road and highway system was privatized you'd be paying a toll every time you went out your door to go to work or anywhere else for that matter.

I'm sincerely glad you support mass transit Towntalk.

Everyone but the mass transit users are already paying their real costs.

Roads and highways are called infrastructure. This infrastructure allows both private and public vehicles to travel with relative ease from place to place. It is used by everyone and paid for, by almost everyone, through various taxes.

This is pretty much as fair a system as possible so I'll call it an even playing field... so far.

Now in addition to the infrastructure, there are costs associated with travelling by vehicle.

There are basicly three choices when travelling by vehicle:

1) Own your own vehicle and pay for all costs of owning/leasing, licensing, insuring, fueling, and maintainence.

2) Take a taxicab, charter bus, boat, or jet airplane and pay for all the above plus the driver's wage and a profit to the vehicle owner.

3) Ride mass transit, pay a minimal fee and let someone else pay, though additional taxes, for the costs you haven't covered .

So vehicle owners pay for #1, customers pay for #2, and EVERYONE pays for #3. No more level playing field.

Everybody pays for 1, also. (and part of 2 as well - I think I have read that air travel is also subsidized by the govt.)  The taxes that are included in gas and license fees are voluntary.  But, these only pay for a fraction of the total cost of our state and federal transportation budgets.  The rest comes from things like income and sales taxes.

Yesterday, I rode the bus with about 15 other people.  All of us who had jobs (a few might have been school kids) were paying the same share of the "mandatory road tax" as any single person in their car.  Let's say $1 of this "mandatory road tax" from each person is used to maintain the Mahoning Ave. bridge.  So, that one person in their car paid $1 to cross the bridge.  But, the single bus load of passengers paid about $15 (or a little less, because of the school kids) to cross the same bridge.

Sorry to hear of your impairment. If it affects your ability to work (and therefore to pay) for your "real cost of transit" I wouldn't have a problem with a free mass transit pass a being part of government disability benefits.

Thanks for your concern.  But I do work, and pay full bus fare everyday.

Publicly funded mass transit is a relatively new phenomenon.  Answer this. Who owned the following mass transit agencies in the Mahoning Valley a century ago?

Youngstown Sharon Street Railway
Youngstown Municipal Railway
Youngstown & Suburban Railway
Youngstown & Ohio River Railway
Youngstown Park & Falls Street Railway

Those five interurbans provided the mass transit needs of the Mahoning Valley, and all were private for profit corporations, paying franchise fees to the cities in which they operated.

So in the name of progress we have gone from franchising out mass transit to private concerns and making money at it to paying for publicly operated mass transit which loses LOADS of money every year. 

Is mass transit really a neccessity?  Yes in large cities with high population densities.  Is it a necessity in Youngstown?  I haven't seen the ridership numbers so I don't know for sure. 

As for your statement about me saying that I favor government subsidizing roads, let me ask this.  Who funds the government?  If you answered that taxpayers do then I'll ask another question.  Is Rick Rowlands a taxpayer?  Well I have a job, and every year thousands of dollars from this household goes to the IRS, so I guess the answer is yes.  Then by extension I suppose some of my money goes to those subsidies, meaning that yet again I am paying the true cost of my transportation needs.

I'm glad you brought up the privately run railways.  They were driven out of business by government subsidies.  Government subsidies made suburbanization affordable.  Not just road construction back then, I believe the government was also giving G.I.'s money to build little salt boxes out in the country.)  This decentralized our population enough to force the use of cars, and forced the private mass transit companies out of business. (though everyone at the time saw that as progress)  Now, all forms of transportation have to be subsidized.

Studies have shown that rail transit is more efficient than bus transit, and bus transit is more efficient than driving a car.  So, if we're going to subsidize transportation, why not get more bang for the buck and spend a little more than 1% of the state's transportation budget on mass transit?

I just copied and pasted the original post from the attached PDF.  The point was to show that Ohio, unlike many neighboring states, puts little importance on mass transit, and that what little we have left is in danger.  In most cases, the local source of funding for mass transit comes from sales taxes.  And, in this economy, the amount of sales taxes collected have declined.

[Towntalk]

You missed two Rick:

Youngstown and Southern
Mahoning Valley

Before it was a railroad it ran street cars and had its depot on East Front street.

Golly bim there were a lot of privately owned street car lines here.

My Webshots site has photos of the street car lines that serviced Youngstown.

[Rick Rowlands]

Publicly funded mass transit is a relatively new phenomenon.  Answer this. Who owned the following mass transit agencies in the Mahoning Valley a century ago?

Youngstown Sharon Street Railway
Youngstown Municipal Railway
Youngstown & Suburban Railway
Youngstown & Ohio River Railway
Youngstown Park & Falls Street Railway

Those five interurbans provided the mass transit needs of the Mahoning Valley, and all were private for profit corporations, paying franchise fees to the cities in which they operated.

So in the name of progress we have gone from franchising out mass transit to private concerns and making money at it to paying for publicly operated mass transit which loses LOADS of money every year. 

Is mass transit really a neccessity?  Yes in large cities with high population densities.  Is it a necessity in Youngstown?  I haven't seen the ridership numbers so I don't know for sure. 

As for your statement about me saying that I favor government subsidizing roads, let me ask this.  Who funds the government?  If you answered that taxpayers do then I'll ask another question.  Is Rick Rowlands a taxpayer?  Well I have a job, and every year thousands of dollars from this household goes to the IRS, so I guess the answer is yes.  Then by extension I suppose some of my money goes to those subsidies, meaning that yet again I am paying the true cost of my transportation needs.

[Why?Town]

I'm all for paying the real cost of transportation.  But everyone should pay the real costs, not just mass-transit users.

Everyone but the mass transit users are already paying their real costs.

Roads and highways are called infrastructure. This infrastructure allows both private and public vehicles to travel with relative ease from place to place. It is used by everyone and paid for, by almost everyone, through various taxes.

This is pretty much as fair a system as possible so I'll call it an even playing field... so far.

Now in addition to the infrastructure, there are costs associated with travelling by vehicle.

There are basicly three choices when travelling by vehicle:

1) Own your own vehicle and pay for all costs of owning/leasing, licensing, insuring, fueling, and maintainence.

2) Take a taxicab, charter bus, boat, or jet airplane and pay for all the above plus the driver's wage and a profit to the vehicle owner.

3) Ride mass transit, pay a minimal fee and let someone else pay, though additional taxes, for the costs you haven't covered .

So vehicle owners pay for #1, customers pay for #2, and EVERYONE pays for #3. No more level playing field.

What am I going to do with a car???  I'm visually impaired, so I couldn't drive if I wanted to.

Sorry to hear of your impairment. If it affects your ability to work (and therefore to pay) for your "real cost of transit" I wouldn't have a problem with a free mass transit pass a being part of government disability benefits.