Topic: Arsons And Wick Park - Monday, November 23

[AllanY2525]

Rick - it was great to finally be able to associate a face with your name...way overdue.

For those on this board who were not at the meeting, I brought a digital camcorder and
made a rudimentary recording of the majority of the meeting. There is little to no footage of
the audience, out of respect for their privacy, etc... but the main speakers did not have a
problem with being on film, including representatives from Resettle Youngstown, the Youngstown
Fire Department, etc.

I have about an hour's worth of video to look through, and will try to get some of the more
relevant highlights of the meeting converted into short clips and up on the website as soon as I
can. 

I agree with Rick that right now, emotions are running high (mine included...I had a **lot** of
complaints to voice at the meeting).  I made a donation to Resettle Youngstown - and was happy
to do so.  Jim Converse is a good guy and cares a whole lot about what he is doing to help the city,
and the neighborhood.

For now, it is okay to be re-active to the problems at hand... but in the long term, we will have to
be pro-active on a sustained basis in order to save these properties and, ultimately, find new owners
and uses for them to turn them back into productive assetts again.

As for the person from downtown that said the city has to keep empty streets lit because of liability
concerns, how about closing off the the street if there is nothing left on it and then removing the street lights
once the street is closed to traffic - this should eliminate any liability issues concerning motorists driving
down an unlit street, right?  The amount of electricity save can then be diverted elsewhere, where it is
needed much, much more.  Doesn't the city buy it's electricity at a bulk rate for public lighting, etc ?

The television news media were conspicuous by their absence at the meeting - did anyone call any of the local
broadcasters and inform them that the meeting was going to take place? 

Rusty - I think it was you who said that you might be able to get me access to the insides of some of the
houses around the park, and close by while I am in town this time... I want to take you up on that opportunity
and get as many photos as possible.  My only alterior motive here is a love of historic architecture.. but showcasing
them on the web site might persuade parties with the financial resources and the motivation to make an investment in
one of them, fix it up and bring it back to life.

If there is anything that I could be doing to help via my website, I am re-iterating my offer to provide hosting
space - I own a domain and the physical server hardware, so we could pretty much web-publish as much
material as we want, including information like neighborhood surveys, concerns of the stake holders, problems
dealing with the city and county to resolve issues, change procedures, etc.  It may be one way to help hold
city council accountable for their actions - or lack thereof.

I, too liked the idea of "adopt a house", or block, etc.  If serious, committed individuals are willing to step
forward and start keeping an eye on these at-risk properties it would really help in preventing the same fate
that 259 Park Avenue suffered fom occuring again.

There seemed to be a general concensus that there are three basic things that can make a vacant property
much less likely to be a target:

1) Board the place up properly, then re-check it frequently to ensure that it stays that way.
2) Keep the grounds up, including cutting back or outright removing bushes, etc that could hide would-be vandals
3) Light the place at night - by whatever means available/necessary.

[rusty river]

I attended the meeting this evening.  Here are my thoughts as someone who comes into this from the outside.

1) Who sponsored that meeting?  I heard about four or five groups mentioned.

The gathering was an official Resettle Youngstown meeting, a movement which has been spawned primarily by those involved with Common Wealth Inc.

2) There seemed to be quite a bit of support for "new legislation".  We tried the new legislation idea after the Stambaugh building incident.  Where does that stand now?  Legislation is a "feel good" fix, but unless it has teeth and is enforced it doesn't help the situation.    What about a new law that would give property owners the option of forfeiting a vacant property voluntarily for forgiveness of tax obligations? If I own a vacant house in the city that has lets say 10,000 in tax liens, I give the house to the government and then just walk away.  The govt. writes off the lost taxes and then sells the property at a nominal price to a new owner who signs a binding agreement pledging to maintain and improve the property.  Would that work?  Kinda like bankruptcy for houses.

Agreed. In fact, there is already legislation in place that addresses many of the concerns brought up. But like you said, there is no enforcement, no teeth. There is not proper enforcement of building codes. City ordinance requires banks to register with the city upon filing foreclosure, pay a $60(?) fee, and provide the contact info for the person/entity responsible for the maintenance of the property. City ordinance requires the registration of all non-owner occupied structures, as well as those that are vacant. These three things are the responsibility of the Housing and Demolition Department. They are not done. Over the summer I called the department and requested a copy of the landlord registration database. I was laughed at. Literally. When the city boards up vacant structures, it is the Streets Department's responsibility. It was the Streets department that chopped down the Treez Please saplings on the north side and demolished the carriage house. Both these departments are under the direction of the Building and Grounds Commissioner, Sean McKinney.

Upon the insistence of the Community Development Agency (NOT the housing and demolition department), every demolition notice that is now sent out contains the option to donate the property to the city's landbank. If the city can easily deal with any liens that are against the property in question, they are forgiven and the title is signed over to the city. The property is then offered to adjacent property owners at a steep discount who pledge to maintain them and take on the property taxes, thus returning them to productive use.

3) Ron Edelstein presented a plan for forfeiture of properties when property tax liens exceed the value of the property. He was shot down without much further debate.  Ron claims to have done this many times, so may have merit.  But nobody will even look into this further.  I am not an expert in this area but I would think that this could be a tool to acquire some properties and shouldn't have been dismissed so readily.

I can assure you that further consideration WILL be given to Ron's plan. But the million dollar question is that if it is so easy to accomplish and if he already has the means to do it, why hasn't he done so?

4) The one good thing that I saw was a willingness to band together and boar up vacant houses.  I saw the enthusiasm that always accompanies these ideas.  People are stirred up by an event (arsons, Stambaugh windows removed)then band together to tackle the problem (roving vigilante house boarding parties, landmark structure ordinance), and then the excitement fades away and the effort fizzles. (Landmark ordinance apparently went nowhere.)  What will happen to the board'em up parties?  Not trying to be a downer but thats the life cycle of crisis caused community involvement.  Maybe one or two people will be left after a few months who would continue to maintain the boarded up houses.  I hope it doesn't end up like that.  I would like to see the group maintain its enthusiasm for this.

The most important thing that can come out of this is neighborhood organization. If key individuals are identified who have the drive and capacity to keep the momentum going, activities like neighborhood cleanups, board up campaigns, and block patrols will survive and indeed have a profound effect on the neighborhood. These actions are simple, but like you said, they don't stand a chance without the necessary organization and infrastructure to keep them going.

5) some ideas were put forth to put lights up on vacant properties, or to board up windows or do other maintenance and then add additional liens on the properties to cover the costs.  Liens are why these properties remain vacant.  Adding more will just dig a deeper grave for that particular property.

Not sure what the solution is. I would think that there is ample justification for the city to spend a few extra dollars on lighting up vacant structures within it's designated historic district. Like Hunter Morrison pointed out, other cities make it a priority to maintain their historic districts. Youngstown seems to have it backwards. It baffles me how council can justify keeping a vacant street lit up, but then dispel a simple request that would offer more security in what is arguably one of the city's most important neighborhoods.

[westsider]

Hopefully the "board'em up" group stays together long enough to get the job done.  But, after that, the "adopt-a-house/street" group will, hopefully, keep them maintained.  At least, that's what I think the intention of the adopt-a-house/street idea should be.  Some of us don't live in the neighborhood, so can't "adopt" a house even though we might like to.

[Rick Rowlands]

I attended the meeting this evening.  Here are my thoughts as someone who comes into this from the outside.

1) Who sponsored that meeting?  I heard about four or five groups mentioned.

2) There seemed to be quite a bit of support for "new legislation".  We tried the new legislation idea after the Stambaugh building incident.  Where does that stand now?  Legislation is a "feel good" fix, but unless it has teeth and is enforced it doesn't help the situation.    What about a new law that would give property owners the option of forfeiting a vacant property voluntarily for forgiveness of tax obligations? If I own a vacant house in the city that has lets say 10,000 in tax liens, I give the house to the government and then just walk away.  The govt. writes off the lost taxes and then sells the property at a nominal price to a new owner who signs a binding agreement pledging to maintain and improve the property.  Would that work?  Kinda like bankruptcy for houses.

3) Ron Edelstein presented a plan for forfeiture of properties when property tax liens exceed the value of the property. He was shot down without much further debate.  Ron claims to have done this many times, so may have merit.  But nobody will even look into this further.  I am not an expert in this area but I would think that this could be a tool to acquire some properties and shouldn't have been dismissed so readily.

4) The one good thing that I saw was a willingness to band together and boar up vacant houses.  I saw the enthusiasm that always accompanies these ideas.  People are stirred up by an event (arsons, Stambaugh windows removed)then band together to tackle the problem (roving vigilante house boarding parties, landmark structure ordinance), and then the excitement fades away and the effort fizzles. (Landmark ordinance apparently went nowhere.)  What will happen to the board'em up parties?  Not trying to be a downer but thats the life cycle of crisis caused community involvement.  Maybe one or two people will be left after a few months who would continue to maintain the boarded up houses.  I hope it doesn't end up like that.  I would like to see the group maintain its enthusiasm for this.

5) some ideas were put forth to put lights up on vacant properties, or to board up windows or do other maintenance and then add additional liens on the properties to cover the costs.  Liens are why these properties remain vacant.  Adding more will just dig a deeper grave for that particular property.

At least I finally met Allan!  Newest member of the Doers club!

[jay]

This whole system of dealing with vacant properties and problem properties is disfunctional to say the least.  There is no one entity to turn to when you have a problem house in your neighborhood.

The adopt-a-house idea might work.  I sure hope the group gets enough volunteers to clean up and board up these vacant houses around Wick Park.

One person expressed the need to routinely check on boarded houses to make sure the property is secure.   Every block watch should frequently check the vacant homes and immediately take steps to protect the property from vandals.

[jay]

Arsons and Wick Park
A Special Meeting with Resettle Youngstown

Monday, November 23
Starting at 5:30 p.m.

- Location -
First Unitarian Church
Elm Street at Illinois
Youngstown, Ohio