Topic: "How FrackFree hurts Youngstown common folks"

[Rick Rowlands]

When discussing toxic chemicals remember the toxicity is directly related to quantity and dilution.  This is one factor that is widely ignored because once you start discussing quantities your argument falls apart.    For example, minute amounts of fluoride in water has widely been found to be a net benefit to humanity.  But ingesting pure fluoride will kill you. Heck for that matter overconsumption of water will kill you, but drinking 32 oz. a day is widely recommended by many doctors.   Yes there are toxic chemicals in fracking fluid, but those chemicals are of such minute quantity that they have lost their toxicity. 

Halliburton has even developed a new non toxic fracking fluid by the name of CleanStim that reduces the amount of chemicals in frack fluid even more.  The industry is responding to the concerns of environmentalists by developing more environmentally friendly products.  So there is a way for everyone to get what they want, but only if there is a level of trust and cooperation.  Misleading people into voting for charter amendments that they don't understand is not a way of getting the industry to trust you and want to work with you. 

Your comment about letting the public decide only works with an informed public.  These days I am afraid to say that I have very low expectations that all but a tiny percentage of voters are truly well informed. 

[iwasthere]

let the buyer be aware.

[irishbobcat]

TT,
 
Then let's agree on the fact that the voters of Youngstown should have the final say on fracking. Put it on the ballot, the gas and oil companies can come in and spend big money to defeat the proposal, the folks at the vindy, tv, and radio stations can make lots of money selling ads, you can work for a pro fracking phone bank, etc....
 
Let's let the public decide once and for all and end this debate....
 
I still have a problem with throwing toxic chemicals down the holes because it's the cheapest way...

[Towntalk]

Let me put it to you this way. There were two ways of providing electricity to consumers ... AC and DC.
 
Edison was promoting DC current while Westinghouse was promoting AC.
 
Edison's argument favoring DC was that AC was dangerous and could kill people while Westinghouse argued that AC was more efficient and cheaper.
 
In the end, Westinghouse won the argument.
 
There is no question that the same people that subscribe to the FrackFree movement use the same arguments, just as there is no question about the fact that newer technologies are coming forward, but by the same token, there is also no question about the need for natural gas.
 
By the way, John D. Rockefeller opposed both AC and DC since it threatened his business of selling kerosene for lighting.
 
If I had to make a choice, I would most assuredly choose natural gas at the cheapest rate possable, so if that means fracking, I'm sorry, but that also means that I would also have to oppose the frackfree movement.

[irishbobcat]

TT, the question is, at what price?

[Towntalk]

One question goes unanswered ... we keep hearing that there are large numbers of Youngstowners who are supportive of "FrackFree Youngstown", and we know that some 3000 people signed the petition, but just how many Youngstowners are really opposed as opposed to how many signed the petition simply based on fragmentary information provided by a stranger on the spur of the moment?
 
Before I sign any petition, I want all the facts ... pro and con ... and will not accept simply the word of a total stranger who is simply telling me one side of the story. How do I know that he is telling me the truth? I don't.
 
As to Ben W. Lupo, today's Vindicator has a lengthy article about him, but does that say that all the companies operate like him? I doubt it.
 
Lupo’s record


ODNR pulls Hardrock, D&L permits


http://www.vindy.com/news/2013/feb/08/odnr-pulls-hardrock-dampl-permits/


 

[Youngstownshrimp]

Dennis,
I know this is one of the most spiritual debates recently and I can tell that Rick and you are full of emotions like me, and I can see that we all want to say the right things without offending each other (by editing), I'm honored.
The point I guess I'm trying to get out to "FrackFree Youngstown," is you have won your fight and there is now no need for a petition at all.  The Green Party has successfully banned Youngstown from the energy industry.  BP, Shell, Hilcorp, Chesapeake, Halcon, Consol and all the other companies have heard your cries and have stopped leasing in Youngstown six months ago.
This is the same thing that happened to me as the City banned shrimpfarming, it was spiritual for me to farm my land, I really enjoyed it.  Now I look at farmers growing shrimp all over Ohio and look at Youngstown deprived of a harvest.  It is with this experience that I am warning you all of the wrong you have done to your fellow man.  Now the really poor of Youngstown like the small engine repair man can look across 616 into Coitsville and see his neighbor painting his house, maybe polishing his new riding lawnmower.  And I am sure he will have sadness in his eyes.
So my fellow Americans, Rick since I am banned on Defend Youngstown, please spread  this Gospel.  TT, please use your great talent to desseminate this information all over Youngstown.  And Dennis, bottom line, I know you are a good man, please forward the information to your party and FrackFree Youngstown, that you all have preavailed, there is to be no fracking in Youngstown.

[Towntalk]

Again Dennis ... we all have problems with what D&L did ... it was criminal. In your very first sentence you said ... "It's not fear mongering, it's factual truth. D&L tried to cut corners in order to maximize profits by dumping crude oil  in our waterways." ... it was brine, not crude oil, there's a huge difference.
 
I know where you are coming from, and while I don't agree with much of it, I respect both you and much of what the Green Party stands for, but I also want to see this valley move forward so that our youth will have something to build upon. I want to see the day when people in Youngstown can replace welfare with good paying jobs, and we have more to look forward to than restaurants moving from one side of town to another.
 
Ron though makes a very good point though as does Rick, while many in the FrackFree movement are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces, and that is as wrong as it can be.

[irishbobcat]

It's not fear mongering, it's factual truth. D&L tried to cut corners in order to maximize profits by dumping crude oil  in our waterways.
Fracking companies are also cutting corners in order to maximize profits by adding toxics into their "secret sauce" to help pump the gas shale out of our ground. This is also factual truth.
Why not "frack" and drill without the chemicals?
I'm sorry, I have a problem with this.
This forum topic should be titled "How D&L Energy hurts Youngstown common folks." If frackers would not use toxic chemicals in the process and would not dump crude oil into waterways, I am sure a very vast majority would have no problem drilling for shale.
But the frackers discovered a way to increase profit margins using toxic chemicals and illegal dumping. And I and the general public don't go for that....

[Towntalk]

Dennis: no one is defending D&L, but at the same time, no one truly concerned about our valley's future is defending the anti fracking crowd who are prepared to destroy the opportunity for a better future for our children, and our children's children.
 
Fear mongering does not put food on our tables; or provide our teachers with the tools they need to give our children a 21st century education so that they would have the tools they need for a good paying job.
 
As an educator, and a member of the Struthers Board of Education you should see just how much more you could have available to your school system if property values rose. I do not believe for a single second that you would sacrifice the future of the youth in your charge for any cause that would set the valley back, and deny them the very best education that money can buy.

[Rick Rowlands]

Ron, these two posts are the best that you have ever written!  It does seem that the people in this city has fallen victim to the fearmongering to the point of causing themselves financial harm.  I am sure that some of the people who have been worked up into a frenzy thinking that their drinking water will be unusable are sitting in their homes with plastic over their windows, shivering in the corner afraid to turn the thermostat over 60 degrees because they couldn't pay the increased bill.   Many of the people living in this city will lie in poverty until they die, existing off of government subsidies and social security and will never have the extra money needed to fix a leaky roof or install a couple of energy efficient windows.  Then along comes this once in a lifetime opportunity to make a bit of extra money that could go toward fixing some of those problems, only to have a couple of well paid and well fed TENURED YSU professors and a bunch of out of towners literally rip that cash from their hands and fill them with propaganda, half truths and downright lies. 

Many people will use D&L as an example, but to do so is wrong.  Lupo's actions are his alone. They are not indicative of industry practice and are not condoned by anyone else in the industry.  We as a people do not condemn entire swaths of people based on the actions of individuals.  We punish the individuals.  If one school teacher has sex with a student do we condemn ALL school teachers or do we prosecute the statutory rapist?  Those who say that the D&L incident is indicative that the entire industry is "bad" would also have to condemn all school teachers in my above example to maintain logical consistency.

The bottom line is that the gas industry in the Mahoning Valley is a safe way for this area to finally bring itself out of the 30 year funk we have been in, but ONLY if the people here want to get out of that funk.  Either many people in this city enjoy living in poverty or they have been had in one of the greatest crimes perpetrated against our population.  The literal theft of the value of their land.

[Youngstownshrimp]

Hello Bob,
You are right about D&L, I have known of their criminal ways for along time and you know as I that the energy companies have no love for them.  Infact, I am more embarassed for Youngstown nationally, we always seem to be the laughing stock of the nation.
However, I am trying to appeal to the Green party's humanitarian side while leaving the drilling part aside. Last week my associate was in the emergency room and laying next to him was the owner of the old small engine repair shop on McGuffey and Jacobs.   This owner is a very respectable small business owner, infact I believe his son is an opera singer in Europe or something like that.  The owner who has four acres with his shop, he worked hard for all his life, apologized for not getting back to leasing his property months ago because he fell sick.  From his sick bed he told our associate that he was better now and he wanted to lease his land and send money to his son.  We felt bad to have to tell him that energy companies are no longer leasing in Youngstown, no matter how we explained it, he could not understand why across 616 his neighbors are getting $6000 an acre and he is redlined.
And there are more sad stories, three elderly sisters (70's) from the Eastside, one in Akron, Pittsburgh and DC, have three acres off of Gerwig that again they paid property taxes for many decades, were excited and thanking God that finally they could get help for all the years they paid taxes.  They to are sad and may never see a return on their land they held on for most of their lives.
You see, it is these real people that are being hurt from the battle to ban drilling in Youngstown, it is not the suburbanites or the rural large farm owners.  It is the poorest and meek of Youngstown who again are at the bottom.  Think about all the remaining homeowners on the WS, ES, NS and SS who by leasing their only plot in life can make a difference whether to paint their house this year or fix their leaky sink.  By banning drilling in Youngstown, every homeowner and landowner in Mahoning county will reap a return, income on their American dream but the poor of Youngstown.

[irishbobcat]

Ron, I do know the current ramifications of what was done in the name of the gas/fracking industry this past weekend by D&L Energy....
They knowingly dumped crude oil into a river......after telling us how environmentally friendly they were.....even after their injection well set off a 4.3 earthquake on New Year's Eve 2011.....
If you are ok with this just because some farmer got big money for leasing, that's your right.
 
I'm not ok with it.....

[Towntalk]

I couldn't have said it any better Ron.
 
It's a sad state of affairs when all we have to brag about is a new eatery, when we could be braging about new industries employing more people at a living wage.
 
I'm personally not opposed to new eateries, but in the grand scheme of things, they do not compare to new industries paying living wages with benefits.
 
What these folks are doing in effect is condeming our youth to inferior educations in schools starved for money, and that's flat out not right.

[Youngstownshrimp]

I'm not going to go into the right and wrongs of drilling, many of you know my position.  I will start this subject with a reminder that irregardless of my faults, no one can deny my service to the community.  It is with this thought that I will be very serious in this post.
Terry, Dennis and any other petition gatherers here, have not really thought about the ramifications and harm you are embarking on in the name of green energy.  What you have done and continue to do is to hurt the common folks of Youngstown the City you claim you love.  Today, Youngstown is redlined by the energy companies for leasing mainly because of opposition.  While landowners big and small in the rural and suburban areas are being paid income for their minerals and are innocent of any wrongs in the industry, Youngstown folks who need the help the most, who struggle to pay their property taxes are not able to generate any of these monies.
In the beginning of this Utica play a year ago, when Youngstown was targeted and not redlined, many of the folks in Youngstown generated money for their small and large parcels.  I can name many, the diner on Hubbard Rd., Temple Nevels on Elm, Jim Hines the plumber on the eastside, and many small homeowners.  The revenue generated, paid property taxes and further investments in the community.  Instead of Youngstown reaping the harvest like so many in the rural areas, Youngstowners, the poorest in Mahoning county now because of leaders like you, are left out of this historic national boom.
If you are against NG and fracking, is it fair to hurt your neighbors because of your beliefs?  You will never be able to shut down the development of energy, it is global and bigger than us all , even bigger than our government.  And yet again the only ones hurt today are the poorest in our community, I could not sleep if this was what I was blatantly doing to my fellow man.